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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#391

Post by emodendroket »

JimboOmega wrote: post #215
evanpw wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always found those advertisements weird. If consumers are rational and have good information, then the average savings from switching is the same as "how much do you have to pay someone to switch to Geico?". The higher it is, the worse you should expect service to be!

Consumers don't have good information; applying for car insurance is a big pain, so they usually don't know. They probably apply once, then have the same car insurance for years... which might mean that they are paying too much. Same basic problem as an employee who has worked at the same company for 10 years, and gotten their 3% raise every year - the market may have changed radically, but looking is a burden (emoti…

Most insurers actually increase premiums over time regardless of whether you make any claims. In the past they offered longtime customer loyalty discounts but as some point some bean counters looked into consumer psychology and noticed exactly what you're talking about so now it's up every year.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#392

Post by emodendroket »

colechristensen wrote: post #70
tom_b wrote: post #66

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area. FTA: A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 more than others who get offers in Seattle. This…

It could be as simple as Bay Area hackers being accustomed to higher salaries and negotiating higher (or not accepting lower offers) even in places with cheaper living expenses.

It's BS but the most effective negotiation tactic in salaries is "I make $X now so I want to make at least $X+Y."

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#393

Post by rootusrootus »

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I love Portland. I might make more in SF, but I'm already making more than the median SF salary while living in Portland, and my house only cost me $350K or so. The cost of living is starkly lower here, and the city itself is much, much smaller and less hectic -- while still being big enough to have all the things you want and plenty of people if you want to be social. I can't see moving to SF unless I could earn $300K+, and even then it might not be enough to make me jump.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#394

Post by morgante »

flukus wrote: post #384
morgante wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you just save up to buy a home elsewhere.

Isn't the rent just as high?

No. The housing market in SV makes renting cheaper than buying.

On an engineer's salary, it is very doable to pay rent and still save up enough to buy an entire house in cash elsewhere in the country.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#395

Post by emodendroket »

twblalock wrote: post #14
ammon wrote: post #2

When people compare salaries / the cost of living in different cities, they often fail to account for the fact that many people don't spend their entire salary in the local economy. If you are trying to save money (or pay for college, donate to a cause, or buy a Ferrari) this costs the same no matter where you live. You should only apply the cost of living adjustment to housing (and maybe food). When you do this, liv…

Yes, this is absolutely true. Your car, clothing, computers and gadgets, and most of your groceries will be a lower percentage of your discretionary income in the Bay Area than in most other places. Your housing and gasoline will cost more, and maybe your car insurance. However, the caveat is that housing is so expensive here that it's difficult to save up for a down payment on any kind of housing on a single enginee…

I mean you only have to pay PMI till you have 20% equity, so it's not necessarily so bad.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#396

Post by nobleach »

sAuronas wrote: post #308
WhitneyLand wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>go to Bay Area to a big firm to build your reputation Doesn't make sense. The big 4 have campuses across the country. Instead of telling people to move to SV I would recommend making sure to get into the right (big 4 or not) team and role for your career. Just fixing bugs at big SV company will not help much. You want to make sure you have a chance to contribute something to show your skills on an innovative or lead…

My first role was in Charlotte - at a startup. It's not everyday that you get to work for a company with fewer that 10 people and less than 10 months old but it happened for me in a market notorious for only having banking mobile dev roles. Ironically, I left the Bay Area to get my first shot because I wasn't young enough for cultural fit most places (apparently). Now, I'm in Chicago and while the weather is shit, th…

I think that whole ridiculous "cultural fit" nonsense is why I ignore jobs in the BA. What on earth do I care if my team listens to the same music that I do? or wants to eat the same food I do? Culture is best when it's infused with all kinds of outside sources. Having this homogeneous hive-mind isn't really good for any business. But trying to explain that to your average 20-something is typically not that easy.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#397

Post by morgante »

derefr wrote: post #92
jeroen94704 wrote: post #41

This article seems to assume you're single and not in a hurry to start a family. I'd be interested to read an article "Does it make sense for a programmer with a wife and kids to move to the bay area". I secretly suspect the answer will be "no", since no matter how you slice it, a 4-bedroom house in the Bay Area won't be reachable until you are well on your way to, say, 40 or so.

I'm a senior engineer. I don't want to move to the Bay (not even in the US, and I love where I live), but I really wish I could make the money I can make there. I'm somewhat pondering an Evil Scheme where I start a one-to-one "subcontracting" firm, where a plain-bad programmer who would never otherwise make it in a startup environment can hire someone [me] to do all their work for them—and maybe even guide them throu…

Or just find a company that pays remote engineers SV salaries. They exist.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#398

Post by alasdair_ »

A major selling point for Seattle over SF is the complete lack of state income tax. Losing an extra 10% of your money before you receive it is pretty painful, and it's especially painful if you get stock options and cash them out while an SF resident.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#399

Post by ryandrake »

morgante wrote: post #388
bradlys wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I live here. I have an average salary for my experience. I can barely save $20k/yr. My rent+util is about $2000/month. I live in a very /cheap/ 1-bedroom with creaky carpet floors, no insulation, and near train tracks that's far outside SF. (Belmont) Altogether I spend close to $4000/month if I don't do anything special. /Everything/ is more expensive in this region. Food is expensive for no apparent reason ot…

You don't have an average salary for your experience. $4,000 * 12 is $48,000. Plus your $20k in purported savings is only $68k. That's only $100k in gross pay, which is the bare minimum for a developer in SV. Most new grads make more than that.

According to PayScale[1] and Glassdoor[2], average/median salary for software engineer in the Bay Area is around $110K, so it's tough to believe $100K is "the bare minimum".

1: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

2: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en...

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#400

Post by morgante »

ryandrake wrote: post #399
morgante wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have an average salary for your experience. $4,000 * 12 is $48,000. Plus your $20k in purported savings is only $68k. That's only $100k in gross pay, which is the bare minimum for a developer in SV. Most new grads make more than that.

According to PayScale[1] and Glassdoor[2], average/median salary for software engineer in the Bay Area is around $110K, so it's tough to believe $100K is "the bare minimum". 1: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... 2: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en...

That's salary alone, not total comp.
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