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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#221

Post by chrisper »

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #201
chrisper wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, same. I live in San Jose and feel 100% like you. I haven't even worked yet and only went to school here and I am already exhausted. This is why I chose not to live here after graduation.

The crazy part about it is it's just going to get worse and worse. I was born and raised in SJ... since the 80s this tech stuff has been slowly building on top of itself like some sort of tumor, and the city does absolutely nothing to stop the gentrification and overall shittyness of the money-money-money mindset from taking over. I'm 23 now, most of my friends and 100% of my parents friends (lived there since the 60…

I am moving (back) to Europe (Germany). I have a European Passport, so I don't have to worry about a visa, like I would have to if I decided to stay here.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#222

Post by the_gastropod »

jdmichal wrote: post #97
the_gastropod wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assuming no 401k contributions. Why? Fully contributing to a 401k (assuming no company match) would put your "take home" at ~$79,200 instead of $72k following your tax rate (which I assume is roughly correct). > That's a net income of $72k per year. If that engineer saves $50k, that leaves only $12k for everything else $72k - $50k = $22k, not $12k. So with no 401k, you'd have to live on $22k to save $50k/year. When…

How exactly do you figure increasing your take-home pay by contributing to a 401k? Did you forget to subtract the money that's actually going to the 401k instead of your pocket? Even at 90% tax rate, all you are doing is sparing that 90% on the money you are contributing. In other words, you are only actually paying $10 for every $100 you put in, because that other $90 would have gone to the tax man anyway. But you a…

> How exactly do you figure increasing your take-home pay by contributing to a 401k?

I guess it depends what you mean by "take-home". The original premise was "saving 100k in 2 years". I hope we can agree that saving money in a 401k is saving money, regardless of whether we agree it's "take-home".

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#223

Post by mcpherrinm »

lostcolony wrote: post #57
mcpherrinm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to work with my team in person. That has nothing to do "making sure they're working". It's just easier, for me, and presumably many others, to be able to collaborate in person. Maybe there's a future where seamless video conferencing, Beam robots, and better text communication could replace in-person conversation, coffee and lunch chats, and other office-place experiences. I've tried, and I don't think we're t…

But that provides a better incentive for remote teams. I agree that teams work better in person, but when you have separate teams, working on only tangentially related things, it makes sense to separate them out. Obviously for small startups this doesn't make sense. But mid to late stage, opening a satellite office for development somewhere else seems like a no brainer. I assume I'm missing something though.

Satellite offices do make sense, however, I wouldn't want to be in one at this point in my career. I'm only a few years out of school, and not 100% settled into what I want to do. Being in a bigger headquarters (or a major non-HQ office) is important for me to socialize with other teams, find out what they're doing, and possibly switch to those teams.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#224

Post by mooreds »

padobson wrote: post #193
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

It really depends on what you want to do. If programming is programming and programming is just a job, then you can do that anywhere there are programming jobs, and with so many companies offering remote work, that could be anywhere. But if programming is what you intend to bring as a founder - if it's simply a means to get the burning ideas out of your head and into a product, then there's a much smaller number of p…

> you need to be able to have coffee with a VC

If you are building a company that needs VC funding. Most companies don't.

"Venture Capital is the wrong source of capital for the vast majority of entrepreneurial ventures" http://avc.com/2005/03/dont_take_the_m/

If you aren't looking to raise VC but instead want to be part of a vibrant tech ecosystem, well, that opens up more mid tier cities. For starters: San Diego, LA, Boulder, Austin, Portland, Pittsburgh(?) in the USA.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#225

Post by crdoconnor »

bradlys wrote: post #119
nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

Sorry, I live here. I have an average salary for my experience. I can barely save $20k/yr. My rent+util is about $2000/month. I live in a very /cheap/ 1-bedroom with creaky carpet floors, no insulation, and near train tracks that's far outside SF. (Belmont) Altogether I spend close to $4000/month if I don't do anything special. /Everything/ is more expensive in this region. Food is expensive for no apparent reason ot…

>Food is expensive for no apparent reason other than to gouge customers.

You're not the only one paying extra rent to rentiers. So are retailers and restaurants.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#226

Post by WhitneyLand »

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

>go to Bay Area to a big firm to build your reputation

Doesn't make sense. The big 4 have campuses across the country.

Instead of telling people to move to SV I would recommend making sure to get into the right (big 4 or not) team and role for your career. Just fixing bugs at big SV company will not help much. You want to make sure you have a chance to contribute something to show your skills on an innovative or leading team.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#227

Post by superqd »

rconti wrote: post #155
strictnein wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had almost the exact same situation, except I'm up in MN. Top notch schools and no crime, 4200sqft home, etc etc. The salaries in SV are way too low to ever consider a move.

Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living…

Personally, we wanted the neighborhood, and also both my wife and I grew up very poor (i.e., we'd never lived in a really nice house). So we bought a mid-size house in a really nice neighborhood (over bought a little). That's why I am personally very happy with downsizing. But not at the cost of paying 4x what I am paying now.

But as already said by others, you fill the space and get used to it. There are times it's really nice to have so much space (holidays with family, birthday parties), and other times it's not (cleaning, a/c). Having a dedicated movie theater room is nice too.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#228

Post by kobeya »

chrisper wrote: post #176
skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

Maybe it is because I live in the South Bay. But here it seems that everyone is just going to work and back home.. and that's it. There is nothing else going on here, but work work work.

Going straight from work to home and staying there is indicative of a "work work work" culture? That's some doublespeak. I have lots of hobbies (and kids) at home, and wish I could do more of that.

The South Bay is a residential suburb. It doesn't have much of a nightlife. The same can be said about most of the places people live in this country outside of the densest urban centers.

If that's not what you want, then by all means move. But recognize that this is exactly the sort of stability many people strive hard for.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#230

Post by twblalock »

the_gastropod wrote: post #222
jdmichal wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do you figure increasing your take-home pay by contributing to a 401k? Did you forget to subtract the money that's actually going to the 401k instead of your pocket? Even at 90% tax rate, all you are doing is sparing that 90% on the money you are contributing. In other words, you are only actually paying $10 for every $100 you put in, because that other $90 would have gone to the tax man anyway. But you a…

> How exactly do you figure increasing your take-home pay by contributing to a 401k? I guess it depends what you mean by "take-home". The original premise was "saving 100k in 2 years". I hope we can agree that saving money in a 401k is saving money, regardless of whether we agree it's "take-home".

I assumed we were talking about money for a home down payment, which would not normally go into a 401k. Getting it out would require a 401k loan, and a 401k loan for a six-figure amount is almost always a terrible idea. The only other way to get it out would be to take an unqualified distribution and get hit with a significant fine.

Most 401k loans become due in full if you leave your job. That traps you in your job until you pay it back, because if you had enough cash to pay the loan outright, you would not have needed the loan in the first place. Unless you have an unusually good severance agreement with your employer that would enable you to pay back the loan if you leave your job or get fired, taking out a 401k loan is a bad idea.

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