Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#181

Post by kLeeIsDead » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:10 PM UTC

skylark wrote: post #173

_jcwu wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but only people who want to make big buck should move to the Bay Area. As you concluded later, money is not everything. I am young and about to finish school, but I am moving away from the Bay Area and even move to a different country. I do not care about the high salaries here, as I just do not like the lifestyle here. So, I'd say that the Bay Area is for people who do not mind having to work 24/7…

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work.

The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me.

I lived in the south bay though... admittedly it seemed slightly better in SF. Less money grobbing and more hipsters. But it looks like all that is going out the window very quickly. The south bay culture is spreading like a cancer.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#182

Post by mrkurt » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

chrisweekly wrote: post #179

mrkurt wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's entirely true. Housing and food are still the highest spending categories. Most of the excess goes to taxes, I think. Families just make it more obvious that's happening.

Childcare exceeds all other household expenses (incl housing) in a huge % of families. Wish I had stats to cite, none avlbl atm.

Oh yes. That wasn't a factor for us (stay at home parenting!) but school expense would have been if we'd tried to get our kids good schooling.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#183

Post by timothycrosley » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #149

timothycrosley wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you're working for the same company, in the Seattle office. Additionally, a lot of the difference is from income taxes that you no longer pay - something that companies take into account when making the initial offer, but not generally when doing transfers.

If you got a boost from transferring from San Fran to Seattle, overtime it would even out during merit pay-raises. Companies that are large enough to support development offices in both Seattle and Bay Area, are large enough to have a very formalized process for raises, which take into account your current pay vs the local market rate for that position.

From what I've heard from friends at big companies, the primary variable in the merit process is your current Salary - it does take the other things into account, but almost never enough to make as much of a difference as your current Salary. That's why people stress that it's so important to negotiate your starting salary higher, and not expect to get paid better once in the company.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#184

Post by xenihn » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #138

timothycrosley wrote: post #29

The smartest thing would be to start in Bay Area, and then transfer to Seattle at the same pay rate.

I would encourage everyone considering Seattle to research the tectonic stresses in the Pacific northwest (US). I'll get you started: "Cascadia megathrust".

I know someone who bought a house near Seattle, and they've accepted that they're pretty much guaranteed to die if they're home at the time that it hits due to the home being built on a hill.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#185

Post by uiri » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

The salaries here do cover the higher cost of living, and if you are able to capitalize on the additional opportunities that are uniquely available here, you could end up doing much more than covering costs.

This conclusion is patently false. The article mentioned but failed to calculate California state income tax.

That $15k-33k salary differential is going to be eaten by at least $12k in California income taxes. That leaves $3-21k to cover the additional rent expenses which is $250 - $1750 per month. The difference in median rent is almost $1500 per month. The article itself already admits that Seattle is better if you wish to own rather than rent housing.

EDIT: The salaries at Microsoft (Redmond) are comparable to the salary figure for Google, Facebook, Twitter, Airbnb, and Uber. The salaries at Amazon are $5-10k lower but make up for the difference in stock.

I'm estimating stock and cash bonus to be 40% of salary (which is conservative for Google and Facebook, I think). California state income tax on $160k is $12k.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#186

Post by LeanderK » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #165

amelius wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best is to move there in an RV :)

Where do you imagine you're going to park it? It's 2 hour parking in resdidential areas unless you have a resident permit (not that there'd be any available), no overnight parking in commercial areas. A paid parking space will run you the price of a 1-bedroom in a sane region.

i don't know the Bay area, but can you maybe get a job at a company that has some parking spaces?

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#187

Post by chrisper » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:14 PM UTC

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

Yeah, same. I live in San Jose and feel 100% like you. I haven't even worked yet and only went to school here and I am already exhausted.

This is why I chose not to live here after graduation.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#188

Post by Mz » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

chrisper wrote: post #176

skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

Maybe it is because I live in the South Bay. But here it seems that everyone is just going to work and back home.. and that's it. There is nothing else going on here, but work work work.

It might be your specific location. It also might be a combination of "selection bias" -- people tend to be friends with people who are like them in some way -- and psychological filtering where you just don't see anything else for some reason.

I remember reading a piece about alcoholism where it was describing an alcoholic who concluded that everyone drinks a great deal and just doesn't admit it because that was what their social circle was like. I rarely drink alcohol and have known plenty of people like me, so, no, not everyone drinks.

Most people suffer confirmation bias. We look for confirmation of what we believe to be true about a thing. It is unusual for someone to actively seek more objective data and try to determine what the actual truth is. Most of us default to trying to fit the world to our preconceived notions of it.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#189

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

hiram112 wrote: post #19

It all depends on your own situation. I, myself, moved from the Midwest to a very high COL East Coast city 7 or 8 years ago. My salary has pretty much doubled, though I imagine at this point it is about $40K more than I could get back home. But I live very frugally, and I have saved a lot of money. The plan is to soon get out of here and buy a nice place somewhere cheaper (South or Midwest) with cash and not worry ab…

I have already blacklisted SF, SV, and NYC for cost of living reasons, DC for typical job quality, and Chicago and Detroit for corrupt and bankrupt local government. The spouse has blacklisted St. Louis for arguably insane reasons, but it's out of bounds nonetheless.

That leaves plenty of places to live, but not very many that are well known for having a lot of good software jobs.

I don't really want to live in a broom closet with 3 other people that already get on my nerves in the space we're in now. It doesn't matter if you are willing to pay me more if I can't maintain the same standard of living on that.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#190

Post by sealthedeal » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:17 PM UTC

"The Bay Area in the early 21st century has produced an astounding number of successful tech companies. Uber was valued at $60 million in 2011 and at around $68 billion in late 2015 [1]; Stripe at around $500 million in 2012 and $9 billion during its most recent funding round; and Twitch at just under $99 million in September 2013, before Amazon acquired it for $970 million less than a year later."

^^^ Is not a selling point. Those are anomalies. How about the hundreds of other companies that are going under consistently everyday in the bay area. If I want to work for startups why would I not move to some where like Austin Tx? Get good experience, have a reduced cost of living, and have no state income tax?