Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#151

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #34

twblalock wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is absolutely true. Your car, clothing, computers and gadgets, and most of your groceries will be a lower percentage of your discretionary income in the Bay Area than in most other places. Your housing and gasoline will cost more, and maybe your car insurance. However, the caveat is that housing is so expensive here that it's difficult to save up for a down payment on any kind of housing on a single enginee…

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

Even with generous wages house prices are rising faster than salaries. And let's be frank about this, when well-paid sw engineers are feeling the squeeze, imagine how awful the economic situation is for anyone in a less fashionable job. There are lots of people who work just as hard as any coder and whose jobs are just as necessary to a livable economy but who face certain economic ruin if they lose their lease - hence all the pressure for a $15 minimum wage. Meanwhile a lot of people who already own property fight tooth and nail against any large-scale building. It's a vicious circle.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#152

Post by sulam » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:55 PM UTC

kevinskii wrote: post #131

eloisant wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is that, and the fact that in the eyes of prospective employers Bay Area experience is highly valued. Honestly I don't think experience in Bay Area is necessarily better, there are great teams in Europe/rest of US and shitty teams in SV, but for some reason there is this Bay Area "halo". Source: I've relocated to Europe after 3 years in Silicon Valley.

Maybe European companies see a Bay Area "halo," but I wouldn't say the same about American companies. My company has software developers in Los Angeles, Boston, Dallas, and Sunnyvale. From what I've seen it's a lot easier to bullshit your way into a senior software role in the Bay Area than it is elsewhere, so the rest of us tend to be a bit wary of the ones we don't yet know well.

It's easy to get a senior role at a random company in SV. There are many companies looking for senior people, provably more than there are candidates. However you have to check if they stick, and what they do. It's actually fairly easy to weed out the bad ones with a 45 minute interview if you don't let yourself be seduced by their ability to talk well. In my entire career I have only once heard of someone who seemed senior doing really well at coding exercises and then turning out to be horrible. I have frequently heard of people not coding as awesome as you expected but talking a good line and then being disappointed after the hire.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#153

Post by nostrademons » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:55 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #144

nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

Your comment doesn't really make any sense, because there is no benefit to having a conforming loan. In fact, there are drawbacks. Recent data showed that jumbo loan rates were LOWER than the equivalent conforming loan. We bought with 10% down on a jumbo and because it's not federally-backed you don't have to pay PMI. Mortgage, taxes, insurance, that's it. Also, I don't know anybody who got that kind of parental help…

That was the reasoning given by a coworker who did this, and he put $500K down. I personally know at least 3 people who've bought Bay Area houses/condos in the $1.1-$1.2M range with multi-hundred-K parental help.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#154

Post by Mz » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:55 PM UTC

My favorite line from the article:

(Perhaps you have heard about...) ...the guy on Reddit who calculated that it would be cheaper to commute daily to the Bay Area from Las Vegas by plane than to rent an apartment in San Francisco?

However, I am going to nitpick the title:

Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

This question really ought to be:

Does It Make Financial Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

I will also suggest that there are facets to this question that really are not covered by the article. I am keenly aware of this because I returned to California as soon as I could for health reasons. My health is simply better here ("here" being California -- I am not in the Bay Area currently).

My condition can be very expensive and very debilitating when it is not well controlled. So, while I am horrified by real estate prices out here, for me it makes more financial sense to be here than to be someplace that keeps me too sick to work while running up medical expenses.

There are many reasons to want to live in a particular place. While criticism of the insane cost of living and insane pace of inflation is totally valid, I think it is problematic to boil down a decision about which job to take or where to live to these (specific) financial metrics (of salary and rent). Life is multifaceted. Such decisions do not hinge entirely on money.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#155

Post by rconti » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:55 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #104

superqd wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interviewed over phone and skype with a Bay area company not too long ago. In between interviews, since things were going well, I started looking for places to live. I have 2 kids, and currently live in a 4200 sq ft house in Texas. I was more than fine with downsizing, but not at the cost of eating up all my salary to live with my family in an apartment that was barely acceptable when I was single. My kids are curr…

I had almost the exact same situation, except I'm up in MN. Top notch schools and no crime, 4200sqft home, etc etc. The salaries in SV are way too low to ever consider a move.

Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living in 6000sqft mansions and it just seems so insane. Especially when they're paying $500/mo on A/C in AZ or TX. Just all seems so wasteful in a way that expensive real estate isn't.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#156

Post by nsxwolf » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:55 PM UTC

maqr wrote: post #65

JoshTriplett wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not understand the obsession the software industry has for locality. For many types of problems, collaborating in person works far better than collaborating online. Lower friction, easier to have a conversation, easier to sit around a computer and experiment, and generally easier to handle things in a few minutes that would take longer otherwise.

Yes, let's all keep believing that. If companies realized that all programmers can actually work decentralized, we might not be able to command a decent salary as it becomes a global race to the bottom...

Supposedly this has already happened with offshore development, and yet, here we still are, paying top salaries for US developers in the midst of a tech shortage.

I worked at a 100% telecommute shop local to Chicago for 10 years. We also used offshore development firms on some projects, and I can tell you, if anyone ever seriously had the idea of replacing us with them, they were quickly dissuaded by the experience of working with these firms.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#157

Post by pesfandiar » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:55 PM UTC

beachy wrote: post #136

Kluny wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investors diversify their portfolios by investing in a number of startups and also in more reliable investments like well-established companies. You can't treat a job that way - there's no way to diversify the hours of day into several different companies with different risk levels. What the author describes is gambling. You bet all your resources (time, in this case) on one horse and hope it pays off big. That's not…

Gambling and investing are just points at each end of a continuum. Just because you can't diversify doesn't mean its not still a good idea to pick your employer in the same way an investor would.

If you want to treat job selection like a long-term investment, you should be getting a consistently high-paying job at BigCo instead.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#158

Post by _jcwu » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:58 PM UTC

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I agree with you, but only people who want to make big buck should move to the Bay Area. As you concluded later, money is not everything. I am young and about to finish school, but I am moving away from the Bay Area and even move to a different country. I do not care about the high salaries here, as I just do not like the lifestyle here. So, I'd say that the Bay Area is for people who do not mind having to work 24/7 (mind work, not physically being in the office 24/7). Mostly, this is people who love tech a lot and want to innovate all the time (start up people).

I for one care more about less stress, less inequality, etc. and decided that the Bay Area is not for me.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#159

Post by danwalmsley » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:59 PM UTC

I did the math on this about 1.5 years ago and came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it. I was, at the time, in a CTO-level position at a VC-funded startup and so had plenty of opportunities in the Bay, but in the end opted to live in a quiet country town about 2.5 hrs drive away and work from home in a lower-key role.

I have a 3yo kid and another on the way, and I do not regret my decision for one second, particularly when I hear horror stories from my stressed-out friends in SF/SJ. Also we can easily pay the mortgage on one salary and my wife is able to finish her PhD without us going into debt.

For us, it wasn't just about salary vs cost of living, but also about the stresses of big city life, competing for limited places in overtaxed childcare, sitting in traffic for hours every day, and being surrounded by other parents enduring the same tortures. No thanks.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#160

Post by sulam » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:59 PM UTC

ammon wrote: post #2

When people compare salaries / the cost of living in different cities, they often fail to account for the fact that many people don't spend their entire salary in the local economy. If you are trying to save money (or pay for college, donate to a cause, or buy a Ferrari) this costs the same no matter where you live. You should only apply the cost of living adjustment to housing (and maybe food). When you do this, liv…

Which leads to a funny observation -- I have never seen so many expensive German automobiles in cheap apartment complexes in my life. Driving elsewhere makes you wonder where all the fancy cars went.