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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#71

Post by derefr »

ammon wrote: post #10
rememberlenny wrote: post #4

This point is interesting: [3] We find that engineers often under-value startup success (growth rate, revenue) when looking for jobs, and instead place an emphasis on brand-recognition, or whether they find the subject area exciting. Now, I don't mean to judge anyone for this — working in an areas of passion may be great choice. But if your goal is to maximize your financial outcome, looking at startups more like an…

You might expect that companies in big markets with great growth would be more competitive (more people would want to work there, and it would be harder to get an interview / offer). But we see that this is often not the case, making it a great strategy. Our next blog post is going to be about this (how engineers decide between offers, and how they can perhaps do it better)

When I, as an engineer, look for a new job, I never even run into growth/revenue figures. Companies like to put those numbers into the decks they show investors, sure, but I've never seen a company put them into the job ads they run. It's hard to compare what you don't know.

Also, a lot of the time when I'm working at these startups as an employee (rather than a founder), the ongoing success and cashflow of the business are made utterly opaque to me and every other employee. Which means, if a potential hire came and asked me whether the company I'm working for has good growth/revenue... I wouldn't be able to tell them. I'd have an impression, but it'd be just that: an image created by the salesmanship of the business side of the company. Which means that asking others when I'm looking is just as useless.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#72

Post by plandis »

This doesn't factor in stock compensation AFAIK. For instance, I started at Amazon at around $90k in salary plus signing bonus of $20k so like $110,000 my first year out of college back in 2013. I made about the same in 2014. In 2015 I got promoted to SDE2 and my salary is closer to $118,000. But additionally I also got like $60k in 2015 in stock and this year my stock compensation is just about $100,000.

I'd imagine this is the case for a lot of tech companies so comparing salary alone probably isn't going to make a good argument one way or another.

Also taxes. WA has no state income tax so add an additional 10% income buying power

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#73

Post by DarkTree »

stephencanon wrote: post #62
timothycrosley wrote: post #29

The smartest thing would be to start in Bay Area, and then transfer to Seattle at the same pay rate.

If you are going to transfer somewhere at the same pay rate, transfer somewhere cheaper and nicer than Seattle. Lots of options (I'm partial to northern New England, personally, as I like having proper winter).

I miss true seasons. Hoping to make it back East in the future. Any recommendations for NE other than Boston (which I like)?

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#74

Post by tom_b »

aecorredor wrote: post #51

"drone programming in Clojure" this...hahaha

I laughed too - but also wouldn't mind working professionally in a Clojure-oriented shop despite having some freedom to use Clojure now. But I'm a lone wrangler of parentheses in my current role and if I could (in my location) join a team of better Clojure hackers, I think I could take my skills up a level or two even if all I had was the opportunity to talk shop in the hallway.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#75

Post by harterrt »

tom_b wrote: post #66

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area. FTA: A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 more than others who get offers in Seattle. This…

This could also be an artifact of the metric. I call this the "Geico" fallacy.

Geico advertises that "People who switch to Geico save 15% or more". Notice that people who would lose money by switching to Geico should rarely switch. Accordingly, this metric will usually be positive.

Consider that people moving to a new city for a job may need more incentive to move.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#76

Post by twblalock »

OmarIsmail wrote: post #67
st3v3r wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Read: Don't have a family and don't do anything special, like take vacations. Also, average rent is $3600/month. That's over $43k a year. That leaves $17k for everything else, following your plan.

A single person does NOT need to spend 3600/month in SF. That's crazy. A studio/1 bedroom can be had for 2500. And if you're willing to compromise on location (i.e. "the ghetto") you can get under 2K. Families that need 2+ bedrooms and a good/safe neighbourhood are screwed though.

You don't have to live in San Francisco. There are plenty of nearby cities with cheaper rent.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#77

Post by VLM »

lostcolony wrote: post #57
mcpherrinm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to work with my team in person. That has nothing to do "making sure they're working". It's just easier, for me, and presumably many others, to be able to collaborate in person. Maybe there's a future where seamless video conferencing, Beam robots, and better text communication could replace in-person conversation, coffee and lunch chats, and other office-place experiences. I've tried, and I don't think we're t…

But that provides a better incentive for remote teams. I agree that teams work better in person, but when you have separate teams, working on only tangentially related things, it makes sense to separate them out. Obviously for small startups this doesn't make sense. But mid to late stage, opening a satellite office for development somewhere else seems like a no brainer. I assume I'm missing something though.

Two mythologies

Our secret sauce is one thing. Exactly one thing. What do you mean "tangentially related" we'd outsource anything unrelated.

The exit strategy is to be bought by a multinational megacorporation not to have two offices, or even ten. There's sort of a financial fund raising dead zone between having one office and being purchasable and having 500 offices and buying little companies. Very few companies jump that gap and its safer to try and get bought that to try and become Google2.0

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#78

Post by akiselev »

tom_b wrote: post #66

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area. FTA: A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 more than others who get offers in Seattle. This…

Perhaps developers in the Bay Area learn very quickly how much demand there is for their skills and that confidence translates directly to leverage during negotiations, regardless of where they look for a job. There's too many confounding factors to clearly pick out which are significant without much more precise data.

On a side note: Calling them hackers when you clearly mean run of the mill corporate programmers seems like something straight out of an HBO show.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#79

Post by eloisant »

colechristensen wrote: post #70
tom_b wrote: post #66

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area. FTA: A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 more than others who get offers in Seattle. This…

It could be as simple as Bay Area hackers being accustomed to higher salaries and negotiating higher (or not accepting lower offers) even in places with cheaper living expenses.

There is that, and the fact that in the eyes of prospective employers Bay Area experience is highly valued.

Honestly I don't think experience in Bay Area is necessarily better, there are great teams in Europe/rest of US and shitty teams in SV, but for some reason there is this Bay Area "halo".

Source: I've relocated to Europe after 3 years in Silicon Valley.

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