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China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#111
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is learning tones much harder than learning all the weird vowel and consonant sounds that English has? I'd always though of English and China as examples of hard languages in terms of sounds and languages like Spanish and Japanese as easy in terms of sounds.

> I'd always though of English and China as examples of hard languages in terms of sounds Glad you mention this. I don't think most native English speakers are aware how complex English phonetics are. There are subtleties that only native speakers can distinguish. That is why many not-native speakers mispronounce some sounds. It is not that we are dummy. Our brain is just unable to hear (and produce) the exact sound.

Yes, but English is still phonetic. If the speaker slows down it's much easier to understand the person, even (or especially) if they speak in monotone, and even if they don't insert breaks in their speech. Inflection in English primarily serves to assist rapid processing, but especially in business communication it can be dropped entirely. Something similar can be said for word order, and to a significant degree even grammar.

As an American I find it very difficult to under British, Irish, and Australian accents. The inflections really throw me off. But the remedy is easy--ask the speaker to slow down. When they speak slowly, I don't need to rely on inflection. (Except in Cork, Ireland. My Spanish is horrible, but I found it easier to converse with people in Guadalajara, Mexico than in Cork, Ireland. At the bus station in Cork I didn't understand a single word coming out of the clerk's mouth. I know she was speaking English--and not Irish--but beyond that I was clueless.)

Likewise, when I've traveled in Asia and South America, understanding somebody with only basic English skills is relatively easy as long as they speak slowly. As long as I can identify the stream of words, I can reconstruct meaning with high fidelity. English grants huge freedoms in terms of inflection, word order, and grammar. Lurk on any linguistics forum and you quickly learn that it's _really_ difficult to commit a bone fide, uncontestable, error in English. Most of the rules in English are basically regional preferences. I suspect that half of what is taught in ESL classes aren't rules, per se, but merely an attempt at the formalization of the contemporary American English accent (i.e. television speech). The added structure missing from the vague rules of English aids the process of instruction. Much the same can be said for English instruction in primary and secondary school in America.

By contrast, after 15 years of hearing Cantonese on a regular basis I still can't make heads or tails of it. I learned some Korean phrases while on the plane; I still have trouble saying Happy New Year in Cantonese.

It's really difficult for people who have a good ear for tones (whether or not they're musically inclined) to understand what it's like for the rest of us. Many people don't even realize they have a good ear for it, probably because they nonetheless had to work hard at it. But the objective research suggests that if you're a native English speaker who picked up a tonal language, you're not normal, no matter how hard you had to work at it.

One thing I have learned in my cross-cultural experience is that Americans, British, and to some extent Australians heavily abuse sarcasm and cultural references.[1] It's only relatively recently that I've realized how sarcastic I can be (which is less sarcastic than many Americans), and how much confusion and miscommunication it has caused with foreign borne co-workers, friends, and family. And maybe part of the reason Americans rely on sarcasm and cultural references so much is because it's difficult to reliably encode signals in English speech. Emphasizing certain syllables, for instance, often only works regionally. The manner in which a New Yorker draws out a vowel to signal emotional content might actually be the normal mode of articulation in the Deep South. And so almost all Americans, even ones who don't abuse sarcasm, have become adept at recognizing secondary meaning based purely on the word content of speech, not the manner in which it is spoken.

[1] I suspect Germany and maybe even France might be similar in that regard. I doubt the phenomenon is unique to Anglophone countries; it's probably partly a function of modern Western culture. But the nature of English probably plays a part, too. Anyone care to confirm or contest?

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#112
post #61

The article doesn't mention that but another possible factor is that life is not that great over there either. If you are not Chinese, you'll always be a foreigner there, even if you spend ten years in the same city, so that makes it difficult to integrate. You'll also have to deal with the Chinese administration for the visa, residence permit, etc. which is quite a pain. It's definitely a great place to visit or eve…

The american administration is bad too for foreigners, so I think it can be summarized by how attractive the country is.

I'm an indian immigrant, this is totally not true. There may be edge cases, but in general, cannot agree with this statement.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#113
post #12

One cultural factor is the fact that developers have a low social standing in China (sometimes referred to as 马工). This leads to low pay, reduced dating pool, lack of respect from people you meet etc.

Developers in China fare much better than in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, or Korea, for sure. They get paid more (relatively speaking) and are pretty desirable on the dating market. If you tell someone in Beijing "I work for Microsoft", you get a much better response than if you tell someone the same thing in Seattle!

I'm hardly pro china, but the society has been pretty aggressive in courting SEs and paying them well (if they are good, of course, there is a huge low end that is quite different).

Now, there is a lot of pressure to move into management, from family and peers; this reduces the number of senior practicing SEs dramatically, and is a huge problem, but a different problem.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#114

this is very much true. Outside censorship, the working culture of China is also quite different. It's quite common to do overtime in China. work-life balance is less respected. People accept it as the normal and are proud of it. My friend worked for an accounting company. In busy season, she had to work till 5a.m. in the morning of the next day and present her report to her supervisor at 8 a.m. she took her toothbru…

Sounds like the worst of both worlds: totalitarian government and hardcore capitalist exploitation at work. I hope every single developer leaves this hellhole.

Word!

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#115

this is very much true. Outside censorship, the working culture of China is also quite different. It's quite common to do overtime in China. work-life balance is less respected. People accept it as the normal and are proud of it. My friend worked for an accounting company. In busy season, she had to work till 5a.m. in the morning of the next day and present her report to her supervisor at 8 a.m. she took her toothbru…

In China, 6 day work weeks were officially sanctioned until the mid 2000s. It was quite weird that everyone would work on Saturday when I visited beijing the first time in 1999.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#116

For people from Russia or other countries China could be attractive option. Take-home money can be good, especially with low taxation. US is not really a competition, it is relatively unfriendly to foreigners, very hard to move there. But I think China wants to mainly increase talent retention. There are many Chinese who stay in US after finishing their studies there. China wants those educated people back.

> US is not really a competition, it is relatively unfriendly to foreigners, very hard to move there.

Which is why the immigration volume into the USA is more than 10 times greater than China?

> There are many Chinese who stay in US after finishing their studies there. China wants those educated people back.

Sure China wants those people back, but those people want to avoid the smog and are rather happy with the public education system for their (more than one) kids. China has a lot of problems to fix before it can stem the brain drain.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is learning tones much harder than learning all the weird vowel and consonant sounds that English has? I'd always though of English and China as examples of hard languages in terms of sounds and languages like Spanish and Japanese as easy in terms of sounds.

The difference is, I grew up learning English ;-) Seriously though, I tried learning Chinese, but for the life of me I couldn't tell the difference between the tones. They all sounded the same to me. I don't know if it's related, but I don't have an ear for music (Music does nothing for me so I have never listened to it by choice). Spanish on the other hand is amazing. I know an handful of languages, but Spanish by f…

Noun genders and never-ending verb endings are the drawbacks to Latin-based languages, for a second language learner. Perhaps Spanish with a single gender and English style verbs would be the simplest.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is learning tones much harder than learning all the weird vowel and consonant sounds that English has? I'd always though of English and China as examples of hard languages in terms of sounds and languages like Spanish and Japanese as easy in terms of sounds.

The difference is, I grew up learning English ;-) Seriously though, I tried learning Chinese, but for the life of me I couldn't tell the difference between the tones. They all sounded the same to me. I don't know if it's related, but I don't have an ear for music (Music does nothing for me so I have never listened to it by choice). Spanish on the other hand is amazing. I know an handful of languages, but Spanish by f…

As a Chinese, when I learn English,

first is to notice the difference of the pronunciation for foreign languages, I believe same as music singer, for word "Porshe", french will read "e" as "ei", English just mute, German says in the middle, but that's hard for me to memorize it in the middle, Chinese has same sound as "ei". Brain is not getting use to the iconic differences of the sound.

second is to correct pronounce the sound, pronunciation of "th" took me one week to practice, because Chinese does not have "th", only "s", that's why lots of Chinese says "sank you" instead of "thank you", that muscle to pronounce that is simply not trained since was born.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#119
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely that I wasn't on an optimal connection - but I also tried coffee shops, various different hotels, and several different vpn / proxy strategies and all were like this (once or twice a proxy configuration would get me about the speed you are saying for a day, but then would be not working the next day), so whatever the optimal connection is, it wasn't easy to find.

I don't know where you lived, normall, in China, you can use Interenet from Starbucks or any chain coffee stores, they are all have good Internet speed. And if you try to access Google or Youtube, FB etc, you can try ShadowSocks instead VPN. For the slow speed between US and China, Jap (and other asian countries), I think that's the nature issue for oversea Internet connection. You can use this website ( http://ping.…

(Shijiazhuang 3 weeks and Hainan 2 weeks) I did occasionally get good speed (I tried starbucks twice and one day it was decent, the other day was quite slow). There was a particular set of docker images that I had to repeatedly download that I found very painful to deal with, and eventually just decided to work on something else- I did in fact end up using shadowsocks, but on one day I set it up with a server in singapore it was reasonable (like 200-300 Kb/s), the next day it was 7Kb/s, so I'm not sure what happened. It might just be that I had a string of bad luck with connections. I guess if you live there it seems reasonable that you could buy a private faster internet connection / maybe find a reliable starbucks coffee shop. I am completely willing to accept that I might just have run into a set of bad connections and it was luck.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#120
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Korean's alphabet is simpler than both you listed imho, but that's just my take.

I don't know Korean, but Spanish is amazingly regular. Once you learn the 27 letters of the alphabet you can read anything. I'm not saying you can comprehend anything, but you can sound out all the words. It's not like English where you can't tell how to pronounce a word just by looking at it (for instance "though"). In Spanish you always know how to pronounce a word just by looking at it.

On top of that, Spanish feels like a pragmatic language: it foregoes French's formality and resistance to borrowed words (e.g., computadora versus ordinateur). It also helps that Spanish speakers tend to be forgiving of gender errors in the rare cases where the spelling misleads (mostly just masculine words that end in -a).
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