Live data from Hacker News

Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

kakoune.org

11–20 of 329 posts

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#12
post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

I use Emacs with evil-mode (vim bindings) and Programmer Dvorak for my keyboard layout.

It's like anything in life, you just have to make yourself do it. There's no substitute for putting in the work and time. Sure, it's painful for the first few months, but I believe it pays off in the end.

I think the biggest thing is this: you say you try every few years to learn these editors. Don't quit next time.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#13
post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

It's totally worth it.

For me, I learned vim & touch typing at the same time. Generally I learned while doing side projects, supplemented with general vim sessions (such as the built-in tutor, and http://vim-adventures.com/).

Many find it easier to start off with GUI vim as your favourite keyboard shortcuts are still there, but I found that too much of a crutch. Once you commit a few standard sets of motions to muscle memory, I don't think you'll find that much holds you back in day-to-day typing. If you notice yourself doing something repetitive when editing, go and look up how to do that thing more elegantly, and carry on.

I'd also just ignore all the customisations until you find yourself at least somewhat productive with the 'factory settings'.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#14
post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

I started to use Vim maybe six months ago and I found it obviously quite difficult to start with but I took it quite slow. I use Visual Studio at work and installed VsVim so I practiced VIM at work and at home on personal projects I used Vim exclusively.

To start off I used no addons at all, and didn't use any for probably a month or two. I'm a front end developer and spend most of my time in Javascript and Rails at home to give you an idea of what tasks I'd do in Vim.

Eventually I started to notice things I found hard in Vim and slowly set about finding some addons to complement my usage, maybe just two or three at a time. I still probably only use about ten addons so it's not too heavy.

Was it worth it? I'd say so, I'm still learning but I can do most things without using the keyboard although I'm certain there are more simple and elegant ways to do things in Vim heh.

Oh and the best tip I heard? Don't place anything in your .vimrc you don't understand.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#15
post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

It's totally worth it. For me, I learned vim & touch typing at the same time. Generally I learned while doing side projects, supplemented with general vim sessions (such as the built-in tutor, and http://vim-adventures.com/ ). Many find it easier to start off with GUI vim as your favourite keyboard shortcuts are still there, but I found that too much of a crutch. Once you commit a few standard sets of motions to musc…

Oh, and for typing: https://www.gnu.org/software/gtypist/

No other tutor stuck for me.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#16
post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

My 2cents on how I picked up emacs:

Keep using your 'main' editor for coding for now.

Get a shell/terminal that you can open/close with a hotkey (iTerm2 on Mac or something like yakuake on linux)

Run the editor you want to learn (I recommend emacs) in your hotkey terminal (basically you want an 'always there' emacs that you can just pop open at the press of a shortcut key)

Spend 5 minutes learning the basic commands.

+) Move the cursor around.

+) Open a file.

+) Save a file.

+) Switch between buffers/files

Now while coding in your existing editor, use the hotkey window with the new editor as your 'scratchpad' or diary. Note down ideas, todo items, thoughts about the code your are writing etc. Google commands as you need them and you'll pick things up bit by bit.

You don't see the productivity drop because you're not using the editor for your main task of coding, but you'll be using it 'little and often' which is a great way to pick things up.

I made the full switch when after a year or so at work I found myself pseudo-coding and stubbing out methods in my scratch file in emacs and copying them to my IDE.

YMMV but hope that helps :)

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#17
post #11

I'm sorry... but "kak"? I love/like vi[m], I love/like emacs... I ... never mind lol The new editing language does look great, and I like the idea of the piped filters... but I can't get over the name :-/

Worth noting is "kak" is one of the (many) words in Dutch for "poo".

I dabble in vim and it's my editor for when I quickly want to change stuff whilst in a terminal, but not enough to be "proficient" in it. As others have noted, I feel there could be a massive gain in editing if I were to get more acquainted with the many vi commands, but the initial productivity penalty has stopped me more than once from making it my default editor. Kakoune's mental model of commands seems friendlier, so maybe it will stick :)

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#18
If you are wondering why Kakoune and not Vim, the OP claims...

(you find following passages later in his post and they don't reflect my opinion)

> A design goal of Kakoune is to beat vim at its own game, while providing a cleaner editing model.

> Kakoune manages to beat Vim at the keystroke count game in most cases, using much more idiomatic commands.

> Kakoune provides an efficient code editing environment, both very predictible, hence scriptable, and very interactive. Its learning curve is considerably easier than Vim thanks to a more consistent design associated with strong discoverability, while still being faster (as in less keystrokes) in most use cases.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#19
post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

I learnt (what relatively little I know of) Vim purely through version control commit messages and "quick edits" to config files that aren't visible in my gui editor project views (dotfiles, hosts etc.)

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#20

If you are wondering why Kakoune and not Vim, the OP claims... (you find following passages later in his post and they don't reflect my opinion) > A design goal of Kakoune is to beat vim at its own game, while providing a cleaner editing model. > Kakoune manages to beat Vim at the keystroke count game in most cases, using much more idiomatic commands. > Kakoune provides an efficient code editing environment, both ver…

This is also quite an important difference:

> Kakoune’s grammar is object followed by verb, combined with instantaneous feedback, that means you always see the current object (In Kakoune we call that the selection) before you apply your change, which allows you to correct errors on the go.

Post reply on HN