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Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

talyarkoni.org

81–90 of 148 posts

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#81
post #39

I always wonder why some disciplines are more open than others [0]. As someone in biology: the state of publication is very sad. We have to pay thousands to _submit_ a manuscript, and then: - get rejected right away, or - the manuscript gets distributed to fellow scientists (who reviews for free). The reviews get collected and manuscript rejected, or - we get a chance to address the reviewer's concern, resubmit and g…

Post your galleys to http://biorxiv.org/submit-a-manuscript when you send the MS out for review. Simple as that. Oh, and respond to RFI/RFCs from NIH asking whether interim research products should count in grant reviews (yes).

You will note that there are now clinical trials on biorXiv, and I've been pushing (as a coauthor) for more of them (NEJM & Blood are the only journals worth noting that won't accept submissions that are archived as preprints).

Elsevier is at least as bad as Blood or NEJM, but seemingly lacks the editorial standards of either. They can suck their 35% profit margins out of someone else, TYVM.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#82
post #39

I always wonder why some disciplines are more open than others [0]. As someone in biology: the state of publication is very sad. We have to pay thousands to _submit_ a manuscript, and then: - get rejected right away, or - the manuscript gets distributed to fellow scientists (who reviews for free). The reviews get collected and manuscript rejected, or - we get a chance to address the reviewer's concern, resubmit and g…

I keep wondering why submitting papers to these journals is necessary. Does the research not stand on its own? > I feel in those disciplines researchers are a big happy family I feel the same way. ArXiv accepts submissions from any registered researcher¹ and it seems so much easier. ¹ https://arxiv.org/help/submit

> Does the research not stand on its own?

Academic mathematician here. It does, sort of, but .....

Say a mathematics postdoc is applying for a job, and she works in underwater basketweaving. The two underwater basketweavers in her dream department read her application and can see that she's brilliant. She's developed a new methodology for weaving rattan under 100 feet of ocean without even getting it wet. She has letters from the most preeminent underwater basketweavers in her field. She should be a shoo-in to get the job.

One problem though. A majority of the hiring committee works in different areas of research. One thinks that underwater basketweaving is overhyped. Another thinks that great work was done in the eighties, but all the interesting questions have been solved already. And these people don't put much stock in the letter writers: they have a reputation for writing glowing letters even for mediocre candidates.

And, so far, the hiring meeting is deadlocked until the basketweavers pipe in: Our candidate has published in Journal für die reine und angewandte Mathematik and Inventiones Mathematicae and Publications Mathématiques de l'IHÉS.

And now, all of a sudden, that postdoc is getting the interview, because her competitors have only published in Mathematische Annalen and Indagationes Mathematicae. (These are all real names of math journals.)

That was a bit long winded, and please forgive me if it's a bit silly, but the point is that we need mechanisms to compare researchers working in different subdisciplines, for researchers to "prove" to the community at large that they're doing good work. I wish we could eschew these games, and I certainly wish we could ditch the commercial publishing industry, but we compete with each other for jobs, for grant funding, and for fame, and we need to establish some kind of metric for evaluating researchers which is as fair as possible.

It is not perfect; certainly it is not completely fair. But I believe it works reasonably well.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#83
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't review for free. Seriously. Every time you review for a journal and don't ask for a reasonable (say, $150/h) fee, you are enabling their predatory practices. Stop doing it. Come to think about it, why not copy their pricing scheme? Sure, I'll review for this particular journal for $3000/h---or I agree to review for any of your journals, for a flat rate of $3000/week, even if there is nothing interesting to revi…

>Don't review for free. As an academic (who hates Elsevier as much as OP, and who has also signed the boycott), I can't agree. If we accept payment from publishers then we tie ourselves into their ecosystem even more. I personally think of academic mathematics like a giant, collaborative, open source project. Research wants to be free, and there is no reason it shouldn't be. Fortunately (for now at least; researchers…

Not to mention that accepting payment may or may not have complications with various different types of worker statuses.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#84
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't review for free. Seriously. Every time you review for a journal and don't ask for a reasonable (say, $150/h) fee, you are enabling their predatory practices. Stop doing it. Come to think about it, why not copy their pricing scheme? Sure, I'll review for this particular journal for $3000/h---or I agree to review for any of your journals, for a flat rate of $3000/week, even if there is nothing interesting to revi…

>Don't review for free. As an academic (who hates Elsevier as much as OP, and who has also signed the boycott), I can't agree. If we accept payment from publishers then we tie ourselves into their ecosystem even more. I personally think of academic mathematics like a giant, collaborative, open source project. Research wants to be free, and there is no reason it shouldn't be. Fortunately (for now at least; researchers…

Not an academic, but I feel like charging for-profit journals for rwviews but not community-driven overlay ones is a practical and ethical policy.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#85
post #71
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole publication industry seems like a conspiracy that's hiding in plain sight for anyone to see. Yet it seems to be difficult to get rid of... and yet no one quite knows why.

I forget the exact wording of the quote I want, but it was something along the lines of "It is almost impossible to get someone to notice something if their continued employment depends on them not noticing it."

It's Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#86
post #39

I always wonder why some disciplines are more open than others [0]. As someone in biology: the state of publication is very sad. We have to pay thousands to _submit_ a manuscript, and then: - get rejected right away, or - the manuscript gets distributed to fellow scientists (who reviews for free). The reviews get collected and manuscript rejected, or - we get a chance to address the reviewer's concern, resubmit and g…

BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT THAT WAY.

Or can't you get a single person to endorse you for a paper in http://biorxiv.org/ ?

Seriously. It's your choice where to publish. you are literally saying "boohoo why can't we have what computer science/physics has" while you reject it.

I have as much sympathy for you as I do for men/women who will never go on a second date with anyone, regardless of how the first went, and then complain about being single. It's your choice, guys and girls.

It is YOUR CHOICE whether to have open biology research. You (personally you, OP) are choosing "no".

----

EDIT: I obviously got downvoted for my tone, but I am keeping it because I think it's "tough love" that will move OP and others to submit to open bio servers.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't review for free. As an academic (who hates Elsevier as much as OP, and who has also signed the boycott), I can't agree. If we accept payment from publishers then we tie ourselves into their ecosystem even more. I personally think of academic mathematics like a giant, collaborative, open source project. Research wants to be free, and there is no reason it shouldn't be. Fortunately (for now at least; researchers…

Not an academic, but I feel like charging for-profit journals for rwviews but not community-driven overlay ones is a practical and ethical policy.

It would be in isolation, but it would also make it hard for people to replace that income if they came to depend on it.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't review for free. As an academic (who hates Elsevier as much as OP, and who has also signed the boycott), I can't agree. If we accept payment from publishers then we tie ourselves into their ecosystem even more. I personally think of academic mathematics like a giant, collaborative, open source project. Research wants to be free, and there is no reason it shouldn't be. Fortunately (for now at least; researchers…

Not an academic, but I feel like charging for-profit journals for rwviews but not community-driven overlay ones is a practical and ethical policy.

I certainly agree that it's ethical.

As far as practicality goes, demanding payment will invariably amount to refusing the review assignment. I don't have any problem with that, but I don't believe that any publishers will be willing to meet such a demand.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#89
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities do exist to add value to society through education and dissemination of information. Seems like a pretty clear charter if you ask me.

Don't some universities exist to make money?

Universities are generally non-profit. For profit ones exist but are generally regarded as scammy.

Of course, one could argue that universities exist to grant generous salaries to highly ranked administrators, who are mostly politicians.

Re: Why I still won’t review for or publish with Elsevier

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep wondering why submitting papers to these journals is necessary. Does the research not stand on its own? > I feel in those disciplines researchers are a big happy family I feel the same way. ArXiv accepts submissions from any registered researcher¹ and it seems so much easier. ¹ https://arxiv.org/help/submit

> Does the research not stand on its own? Academic mathematician here. It does, sort of, but ..... Say a mathematics postdoc is applying for a job, and she works in underwater basketweaving. The two underwater basketweavers in her dream department read her application and can see that she's brilliant. She's developed a new methodology for weaving rattan under 100 feet of ocean without even getting it wet. She has let…

Do those sorts of differences in early publishing predict later success—say, in attracting grants or top grad students, when you adjust for the benefits of being at a top school? If not, maybe it doesn't matter which is hired, as with the undergraduates so often told that a whole admitted class could be set aside, the next N taken, and the world would go on.
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