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Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

nytimes.com

71–80 of 132 posts

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#71
post #16

Do you think it's reasonable that conversations like this are fine on HN, but anytime I bring up Christian thought on the matter I am pressured to "not talk religion"? Wrestling with these top shelf Maslow's questions like "why am I/we here?", "what is the meaning of life" and other big life questions are common among all of us. So why the willingness to conjecture that (we live in a simulation | aliens may have seed…

In order for discussion to have any meaning, the things we claim have to be 'falsifiable'; there has to be SOME observable consequence of a claim being either true or false, even if we aren't able to currently observe it. So, for religious discussions, what can we possibly discuss? Take any religious claim, and when we ask 'What observation could you make that would demonstrate to you that the claim is false?', the a…

> In order for discussion to have any meaning, the things we claim have to be 'falsifiable'

This assumes a particular brand of empiricism. Which is not falsifiable.

Not saying that discounts everything founded on empiricism. Just that the claim you're making doesn't live up to its own standard, and thus isn't necessarily a good way of dismissing other approaches, such as religion.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#72
post #16

Do you think it's reasonable that conversations like this are fine on HN, but anytime I bring up Christian thought on the matter I am pressured to "not talk religion"? Wrestling with these top shelf Maslow's questions like "why am I/we here?", "what is the meaning of life" and other big life questions are common among all of us. So why the willingness to conjecture that (we live in a simulation | aliens may have seed…

Well, it's explicitly addressed in the article:

> When an argument for higher purpose is put this way — that is, when it doesn’t involve the phrase “higher purpose” and, further, is cast more as a technological scenario than a metaphysical one — it is considered intellectually respectable. I don’t mean there aren’t plenty of people who dismiss it. I’m talking about how people dismiss it. [...]

> If you walked up to the same people who gave Bostrom a respectful hearing and told them there is a transcendent God, many would dismiss the idea out of hand.

So here you have it, people like the message better when it's told through a story they already know.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#73
Lots of muddled thinking, but some good points and a good start. There are a couple of things in particular that I think are interesting and worth drawing attention to. None of these are religious ideas per se; they are philosophical.

The first is the the idea of telos. Telos in the philosophical sense refers to that toward which something is ordered. It is frequently misunderstood as something identical with conscious intent, but it has nothing to do with such intent per se, only with what may be called the causal structure of a thing. For example, when I say that a heart is ordered toward pumping blood through the circulatory system, I am not speaking of conscious purposes. I am speaking of the way in which the heart is structured and the way it functions and to what end it functions. Indeed, without telos, we could not explain efficient causality. We could not explain why hearts tend to pump blood instead of, say, materializing elephants or playing the Dies Irae of Mozart's requiem. Even biologists who strive to suppress talk of telos inevitably resort to teleological language like "function". Sometimes such terminology is dismissed as only metaphorical, but such dismissals are flippant and do not pass closer examination. After all, if a term is metaphorical, then you have to ask what the metaphor stands for. Deny teleological language and biology ceases to make sense.

The reason teleology has been a difficult thing to digest has largely to do with the mechanistic turn in philosophy that has seeped deeply into ideas about science. Notice how popular debates between atheistic, materialist proponents and theistic, dualist opponents of evolution typically center on the probability of something as complex as life arising without a mind to have caused it. Paley's ghost haunts the discussion. The reason is that both the opponents and proponents of evolution in these debates hold to a mechanistic, Cartesian metaphysics where teleology is conceived of as extrinsically imposed by a divine intellect and now something intrinsic to things in themselves. Of course, the proponent will deny the divine intellect, just as he will deny the immaterial Cartesian mind, but he will not have not escaped the metaphysics altogether. This metaphysics has causes a proliferation of problems in philosophy that admit no solutions.

However, it is a mistake to think that this metaphysics is the old contender. There is a small but vibrant revival of Aristotelean metaphysics under way and with it comes a "revival" of teleology.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did my thesis on the argument from design post-Darwin. A lot of interesting discussion centers on how to reconcile the generalized principle of mediocrity with the apparently low probability of a life-supporting universe existing (in terms of how fine-tuned basic constants have to be for it to happen). Some people try to end-run around this with anthropic arguments (which better writers than myself have pointed out…

I have a number of points to make. The Many-worlds interpretation of QM does not mean that different universes have different fundamental constants. If that were the case, the fundamental constants could change in value each time a quantum measurement took place. The universe might be infinite in extent (e.g. Einstein-de Sitter) even though at any time you can only see a finite part of it, so even though the probabil…

> but I can't see any way that NPCs in a virtual reality/simulated universe can be conscious

If in the future we have even faster computers, and ability to scan all the molecules in your brain (at good enough resolution, but not beyond Heisenberg). Then we simulate the chemistry going on. Do we now have consciousness in a computer?

It is hard to see how billions of neurons together create consciousness. Just like how it hard to see how computer can be conscious. But claiming "impossible" is quite a strong claim. How do you support it?

If our universe is a simulation, it is one of atoms or quantum fields/gravity or something that gives rise to those. Anything else we see is build from those things. Therefor consciousness seems like an effect grounded in this universe.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#75
post #54

If compute power is the only thing that matters, we do not live in a simulation. The best computer we can hope to build in the future will only have a minute fraction of the compute power of reality. Simulating reality on that computer will either be a tiny reality, or a much lower fidelity reality. If you find yourself alive, likely you live where there is the most compute power, therefor, base reality. Especially s…

Reality in the universe one level up could be different in such a way that it is more conducive to creation of virtual universes. Our idea of reality could be a mere shadow of what others think of as reality.

From our universe, and simulations we can create, and simulations in there, etc. it holds.

It is interesting to think that an outside universe could be so different it does not hold going up to base reality. But that implies that logic, math, and computability, are different there. That is not very likely, though ultimately unknowable to us.

Literally "a mere shadow of what others think of as reality" implies that that universe has a lot more compute. Therefor with much higher probability you would have evolved directly in their universe, on some tiny pinhead, or in a corner of their universe, not in a simulation they create, no matter how many they create.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#76
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly rational. Reduce Entropy. Period

Doesn't mean you should write your comment by the same principle. Reducing entropy by growing more complex seems counterintuitive. I don't see rationality in the chaos. I don't even see what your "It" is. Attribution of rational reason to an "it" seems like a short cut leading to a domain error. Ultimately this leads to discussion about free will and what not, for which a short-lived discussion does indeed not seem t…

Well Hacker News is definitely not the medium for this discussion, I'll grant you that.

It's not clear to me where is a better choice.

Could go for phys.org or stackoverflow I guess, but equally inane.

Nobody likes to talk about metaphysics, which is what this is really about I guess. For good reason I suppose.

Then again, before Darwin and Einstein, everything was very clear.

Right now very rational people are looking into string theory, pilot wave theory, simulated universes and a heck of a lot more.

Meanwhile, we are attempting to build self driving cars, automated systems that tempt us to buy crap we don't need and reduce the planet to a winner takes all philosophy. Nothing about that seems "Human"

Entertain me on why the universe isn't trying to build its own god. Happy to take the discussion elsewhere.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a number of points to make. The Many-worlds interpretation of QM does not mean that different universes have different fundamental constants. If that were the case, the fundamental constants could change in value each time a quantum measurement took place. The universe might be infinite in extent (e.g. Einstein-de Sitter) even though at any time you can only see a finite part of it, so even though the probabil…

The Many-worlds interpretation of QM does not mean that different universes have different fundamental constants. It's more generally accepted now that the values of the constants were contingent on conditions in the very early universe. This doesn't mean that a fork off of, say, our world right now would get different constants, but that in the early-universe time period there would be forks getting different values…

> It's more generally accepted now that the values of the constants were contingent on conditions in the very early universe.

Cite? I'm unaware of any such consensus.

> We don't have evidence of the universe being infinite in extent, though.

The universe's density seems to be very close to the critical density:

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/C/Critical+Density

http://www.space.com/24309-shape-of-the-universe.html

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_concepts.html

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those things are falsifiable, we just don't yet have the capability to conduct the experiments that could possibly falsify them.

You're going to use simulated experiments to prove or disprove we're in a simulation? Based on our simulated understanding of the physical laws of our simulated universe?

There are people working on ways we could prove or disprove we are in a simulation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#Testing_...

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#79
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're willing to allow that Christianity is conjecture, "introducing Christian thought" is not a discussion but a sermon.

I'm not hindu but I won't force my hindu friends to renounce the strength of their beliefs as a prerequisite for discussion. I'm not atheist but I won't force my atheist friends to admit that there is a God as a prerequisite for discussion. I think it's possible to have fruitful discussions while holding respect for other belief systems.

I mean putting aside your own beliefs, not requiring others to put aside theirs.

People who are not willing to entertain the possibility that they're wrong (a reasonable definition of having faith, IMHO) will either exclude themselves from the discussion or turn it into a sermon.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did my thesis on the argument from design post-Darwin. A lot of interesting discussion centers on how to reconcile the generalized principle of mediocrity with the apparently low probability of a life-supporting universe existing (in terms of how fine-tuned basic constants have to be for it to happen). Some people try to end-run around this with anthropic arguments (which better writers than myself have pointed out…

I have a number of points to make. The Many-worlds interpretation of QM does not mean that different universes have different fundamental constants. If that were the case, the fundamental constants could change in value each time a quantum measurement took place. The universe might be infinite in extent (e.g. Einstein-de Sitter) even though at any time you can only see a finite part of it, so even though the probabil…

> The Many-worlds interpretation of QM does not mean that different universes have different fundamental constants. If that were the case, the fundamental constants could change in value each time a quantum measurement took place.

You can replace Many-Worlds with Eternal Inflation and you get an infinity of bubble universes, and my understanding is those universes would span every possible set of constants:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_inflation

> In 1983, inflation was shown to be eternal leading a multiverse in which space is broken up into bubbles or patches whose properties differ from patch to patch spanning all physical possibilities.

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