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Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

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Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is subsidization, on too many fronts to name. If anything it has been too effective because it is quite invisible and taken for granted by the recipients, which then allows them to see their own life narratives as stories of succeeding in the market economy due to hard, honest work. The work may indeed be hard and honest, but it only succeeds at the costs and prices it succeeds at due to vast subsidies, which agai…

The modern infrastructure that you're talking about, is that phone and electricity and water and sewer? Because most of the small town inhabitants pay for that themselves, or get small subsidies through federal programs. For example, the "much" higher cost of bringing phones to rural areas is a surcharge on your phone bill. In 2014 it was about $7 billion. That's a lot, but a complete joke compared to the federal bud…

The point I tried--and failed!--to make is that in general the recipients of these subsidies have very simplistic and one-sided views of them (if they even see them as subsidies).

I'll pick on this statement of yours:

> But eventually all/most/some of those roads do in fact have to exist to get the food from the countryside into the cities.

...it's not wrong, but it's incomplete: you forget as well that for modern farming, you also need all/most/some of those roads to get tractors/fertilizer/pesticide to those farms so they can actually have surplus food to bring to the city to sell (and presumably the farmers would like clothes, housewares, televisions, and so on...).

Sure, at an aggregate level the numbers wind up the same--you save some on roads but fresh produce has a higher sticker price--but it's grating that the recipients of said subsidy consistently take such a one-sided view of the implicit transaction.

Sticking to just the roads, it's also very partial-equilibrium: stop funding those roads (e.g. so they devolve to dirt or gravel) and what happens to the cost-effectiveness of those electrical coops? Maintenance and repair gets pricier b/c it becomes harder to get where you need to get...and depending on how crappy we're letting our roads get in this thought experiment we're maybe having a much harder time getting the generating and related equipment to where it needs to be in the first place.

Moving on a bit, when you dig into things like that universal service fund it's IMHO a mistake to take it at face value.

The first issue is assuming the surcharge is the only form of subsidization; this isn't generally true. It's quite common for e.g. telecom utilities to charge roughly uniform rates over surprisingly wide geographic areas, with surprisingly wide operating costs "under the hood". There are a lot of reasons behind this pricing uniformity, but regardless of why it exists it's effectively a second layer of (hidden) subsidization (b/c the residents of lower-cost-of-service areas are effectively contributing funding to the residents in higher-cost-of-service). There are enough reasons for this uniformity it's hard to imagine it disappearing...but it's still important to be aware of b/c otherwise you assume that that subsidy is sufficient to cover the true cost-of-service differential.

A second issue is mis-understanding the incidence. Let's use pretend #s to make it easy: everyone's bill looks like $localBase + $nationalSubsidySurcharge (so the subsidy is collected from everyone and then redistributed as-needed). We'll use that $7 billion / year figure as the total subsidy collected, and as a nice round # assume 350 million people paying, so basically everyone in the country's throwing a $20 into a big pot to keep everyone else's phones working.

So far so good. But now let's kill the subsidy, what happens? First, everyone's bill goes from "$localBase + $nationalSubsidySurcharge" to just "$localBase", since now we're no longer kicking in that $20.

Keeping all assumptions simplistic, we will go with 60% of the country (just under that 2/3 living near the borders) were already paying full-freight on their base rate, and thus they're now $20 richer with no direct ill-effects.

The remaining 40%, however, were paying a base rate that fell $7 billion short of what it needed to be--whence the subsidy we just threw out--and thus now it's up to ~140 million people to scrounge up that $7 billion shortfall. This isn't the end of the world--they're just going from "$localBase + $20" to "$localBase + $50 (== $realLocalBase)"--but it'd a big increase (their original contribution, that much again, and then a bit more).

In this case I had to slant the #s pretty aggressively and for this specific subsidy the reality of the situation is more modest...but I worked through it b/c it illustrates the fundamental logic of such subsidies: you have a lot of people paying a little bit to save a smaller group of people from a large expense.

Such arrangements are not, IMHO, intrinsically questionable...but it's definitely a bit questionable to conflate aggregate costs ($7 billion, cheap!) with the implicit per-capita benefit received (with my BS #s it's a net $30/head for the recipients).

Having said all this I feel the need to point out that farmers proper are usually much more realistic; it's more the farming-adjacent (e.g. those who live in "rural" areas) who tend to think of roads as (literally) one way "food to town" transports and so on.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#92
post #89

Although I don't think this is feasible or even necessarily the right thing to do, I personally am dying to go back to the Midwest. Coming from beautiful, friendly, cold Northern Michigan, I'd be ecstatic to get out of the DC area, but good luck moving the other 10,000 NASA employees. It's a different culture in the Midwest. Some good, some bad, but overall I personally prefer the ability to have friendly conversatio…

It's always fun when someone from HQ is transferred out to the rural Siberian hinterland of MSFC. A combination of "Wait, they have Starbucks here in the middle of nowhere?" and "Why are there cows next door?"

Having just gotten back from Asia, I'm convinced at this point there are Starbucks everywhere.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply and demand can both increase. It's the difference that matters.

I wrote "ceteris paribus". Please actually read comments before downvoting. My comment still stands. If, everything else remaining equal, supply "dramatically increases" than demand will fall.

While I didn't downvote your comment, using Latin on an English speaking site isn't an effective means of expressing ideas.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#94

Although I don't think this is feasible or even necessarily the right thing to do, I personally am dying to go back to the Midwest. Coming from beautiful, friendly, cold Northern Michigan, I'd be ecstatic to get out of the DC area, but good luck moving the other 10,000 NASA employees. It's a different culture in the Midwest. Some good, some bad, but overall I personally prefer the ability to have friendly conversatio…

I think you are really stereotyping here. I suspect your impressions are based more on your social circles than the actual culture. If your circles are in work related settings or with other transplants from outside D.C., the experienice is a lot different than if interacting with D.C. natives. Likewise for non midwesterners who move to the Midwest.

I'd also say that a lot of people just ask where you work as a matter of conversation, not because they're interested in what you can do for them in business. Opening a conversation that way unfortunately has a lot of side effects.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote "ceteris paribus". Please actually read comments before downvoting. My comment still stands. If, everything else remaining equal, supply "dramatically increases" than demand will fall.

While I didn't downvote your comment, using Latin on an English speaking site isn't an effective means of expressing ideas.

I have to agree that to assume everyone would understand some Latin phrase is, well.. presumptuous.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#96

So this guy wants just a little bit of a planned economy. Not too much, mind you. Just the right amount. Newsflash: If doing business gets easier, then more business will be done. More business leads to more economic activity and more jobs. It's not that complicated.

But momentum is definitely factor. Once you have a successful city/region, people flock there, often to the point of overcrowding. Businesses want to be where the "talent" is.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#97
post #43

Judging by comments it fees like the HN crowd has an incredibly warped view of the Midwest. It is amusing because it is a rather great place to live.

A lot of snobbish comments here IMO, coming from Europe I'm getting an image of the Midwest as a place where 99% people work in agriculture and don't know how to read or write.

A few of the Midwest states in the corn belt consistently out performed the rest of the nation in the pre college tests that used to be given to most of the nations students, though part of this was due to the lack of minority students.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been done before, check out Brasilia, Yamoussoukro, Naypyidaw more recently. I think it's fair to say that it's not been a massive success, and that federal employees generally did/do everything they could to stay in the old capital. Aside from the fact that the entertainment and cultural options available tend to be limited, distance from the rest of the family and friends, as well as the perspective of being t…

DC itself is an example of a new planned city for a government capital. It just happens to be pretty old (for a US city).

Yes, but it was created from scratch rather than relocated from a pre-existing well-established capital. It was also set up relatively close to the large cities at that time, unlike the examples I've given, or a location deep in the Midwest.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DC itself is an example of a new planned city for a government capital. It just happens to be pretty old (for a US city).

Yes, but it was created from scratch rather than relocated from a pre-existing well-established capital. It was also set up relatively close to the large cities at that time, unlike the examples I've given, or a location deep in the Midwest.

The majority of the Midwest is within 200 miles of a major population center. And then any effort to establish more government offices would tend to choose areas at least nearby existing centers.

(You can check this with chains like Cleveland-Detroit-Chicago-St Louis-Kansas City; each interval is less than 300 miles)

I don't disagree that it would need to be an incremental process.

Re: Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it was created from scratch rather than relocated from a pre-existing well-established capital. It was also set up relatively close to the large cities at that time, unlike the examples I've given, or a location deep in the Midwest.

The majority of the Midwest is within 200 miles of a major population center. And then any effort to establish more government offices would tend to choose areas at least nearby existing centers. (You can check this with chains like Cleveland-Detroit-Chicago-St Louis-Kansas City; each interval is less than 300 miles) I don't disagree that it would need to be an incremental process.

It sounds like we agree completely then, 200/300 miles is just the kind of distance that a high-speed train is perfect for.
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