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Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

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Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#151

Post by WalterBright »

ryandrake wrote: post #53
japhyr wrote: post #15

Teachers disliked him, because they knew how easily he picked up information. I'm a teacher, and this is one of the things that frustrates me deeply about our education system. I welcome students like this; they're so much fun to work with. But I usually have to make them feel accepted before I can begin to work with them. I teach in a small alternative high school, and by the time bright students get to me, they're…

It's not that the teachers _dislike_ him, it's that they are frustrated that he is not following the curriculum and conforming to the lesson sequence and timeframe planned for. I found US public school education was not about learning and mastery. It's about conformity and obedience. Learning the subject matter is secondary--the key to succeeding at this institution is to do things in the expected way, at the expecte…

> It doesn't matter if you can do division in your head, kid. You're expected to write down the specified intermediate steps so just turn your brain off and do it. The point is to follow the prescribed process, not to master the subject.

Some people can intuitively do division in their head for simple problems, but if they don't learn the mechanical algorithm for it, they are unable to do more complex division.

BTW, I've implemented divide routines in assembler before CPUs had a divide instruction. I used the same algorithm I learned in 3rd grade. Polynomial division also uses the same algorithm.

There is a point to learning an algorithm, even if you already know the answer.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#152

Post by csa »

CalRobert wrote: post #146
throwaway942 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes that is certainly part of it. Do you go out of your way to explain calculus or particle physics to children? Or do you simply not bother? When a person has spent their entire life trying to communicate whatever they were excited about to people who are only interested in the fad du jour, they don't develop the skills to communicate well once they do find people bright enough to understand. For example, go w…

"Cal Poly " - as a Cal Poly alum this wasn't really my experience. Of course, with thousands of people in the incoming class, experiences will vary. Most of my social connections were through choir.

I imagine he meant Cal Tech.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#153

Post by csa »

tobyjsullivan wrote: post #116

I'm trying to figure out how realistic the mentioned concept of a "window of comprehension" actually is. This [paper? article? post?] only has one external reference - to another document from the same group[1]. That short document, in turn, makes unsupported claims that "Studies have shown that there is a “window of comprehension” of about 30 IQ points." A quick Google search didn't provide anything further in suppo…

I was first exposed to this idea in a book called Greatness: Who makes history and why.

IIRC, one of the points was that most famous generals (at least historically) did not typically have extremely high IQs (e.g., 150+) -- the generals needed to be in the 11x-12x range so that they could be within an IQ range that was able to empathize with their soldiers (or at least the junior officers) who were likely in the 9x-10x range.

I just checked the ToC on Amazon, and I think chapter 8 touches on this topic. It has been a while since I read it, so I might be wrong. I can't recall what sources the author cited, if any.

On a personal level, the idea of a "window of comprehension" has helped me a lot. I used to get frustrated as a kid when people didn't see the same solutions (or even problems) that I saw. Later I came to realize that they were just seeing it from a different perspective than I was. There can be some complex social interaction to get other folks to see the bigger and more dynamic problem and solution space without coming across as condescending, but it's awesome when it happens.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#154

Post by jacobolus »

fjdlwlv wrote: post #110
ryandrake wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's unfortunate. It's certainly by design. The societal purpose of public schooling is to prepare the future service workers and corporate drones of America to follow procedures and not get too curious. The (pre-determined) future leaders of America have their own track with private/prep schools, tutors, and Ivy League higher-ed, where the focus/purpose is, I would imagine, very different.

This is a silly myth. The privileged upper class don't get a special better-designrf education, they get a professional network that puts them in power regardless of their education. There's no special high school class that teaches "skills for becoming a CEO or a Congressperson".

I went to a better-than-average public high school and then a top tier college and I spent lots of time with people who went to prep school. There are substantial differences between prep school vs. public school in a rich well educated area vs. public school in a poor area.

Prep schools are most certainly better (on average) at teaching students to be assertive, seek out opportunities, bend rules, etc. The coursework is harder and more engaging than even top-track classes at good public high schools. On average students get more individual attention from teachers.

Likewise, there is a wide gap between work difficulty and quantity and expected levels of preparation at top tier colleges vs. average colleges. At top tier colleges, the typical student is incredibly ambitious, and there is a categorical difference between the extent to which typical students seek leadership opportunities and pursue impressive goals. (This is not to diminish the work of typical students at average schools, many of whom come from difficult circumstances and must struggle to pay the bills, etc. And of course there are some amazingly ambitious and talented students even at mediocre schools who do amazing work.)

There are surely still many problems with even the best schools, but the difference is by no means limited to professional networks.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#155

Post by csa »

teilo wrote: post #140
tobyjsullivan wrote: post #116

I'm trying to figure out how realistic the mentioned concept of a "window of comprehension" actually is. This [paper? article? post?] only has one external reference - to another document from the same group[1]. That short document, in turn, makes unsupported claims that "Studies have shown that there is a “window of comprehension” of about 30 IQ points." A quick Google search didn't provide anything further in suppo…

I am highly skeptical of this as well. It is certainly not my experience. I sometimes catch myself getting impatient and irritable when I am attempting to communicate with some one of low-to-average intelligence (I'm around 150), but if anything my ability to engage in abstract and metaphorical thinking helps me paint pictures to explain complex things to people. Part of the problem, I think, is that this may well be…

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment on emotional intelligence and communication.

That said, does the ability to empathize and communicate with someone outside of that window mean that it doesn't exist? I know that when I go full speed with someone at my level, it sounds like a foreign language to some of my peers. They understand the words we say, but they don't really understand the conclusions, implications, etc.

Note that I am not sure I agree with the hard interpretation of the author of the article (specifically, "no meaningful communication is possible among people not sharing a common window of 30 IQ points"). That said, I do think that there are some fundamental differences in how people outside of a 30-point range perceive the world.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#156

Post by mrottenkolber »

ryandrake wrote: post #53
japhyr wrote: post #15

Teachers disliked him, because they knew how easily he picked up information. I'm a teacher, and this is one of the things that frustrates me deeply about our education system. I welcome students like this; they're so much fun to work with. But I usually have to make them feel accepted before I can begin to work with them. I teach in a small alternative high school, and by the time bright students get to me, they're…

It's not that the teachers _dislike_ him, it's that they are frustrated that he is not following the curriculum and conforming to the lesson sequence and timeframe planned for. I found US public school education was not about learning and mastery. It's about conformity and obedience. Learning the subject matter is secondary--the key to succeeding at this institution is to do things in the expected way, at the expecte…

I know a lot of people who did what you recommend and it broke them all mentally. Its really hard to regain self respect and adjust back to reality when you obey for 10+ years.

So I will give the opposite advice: Rebel. Be a pain. Skip class. Don't get into college.

If you're unlucky that might close lots of career gates, but at least you got your sanity, and that's the most important thing. A healthy mind is worth a bunch.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#157

Post by [deleted] »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #133

I can relate somewhat. Good student, got good grades with about zero effort, did good in extracurriculars, but found most academic-related things to be very boring (it was mostly memorization of facts with zero critical thinking). Most of my friends worked menial jobs or sold drugs, and while I did graduate high school and stay out of serious trouble, instead of university I got a restaurant job and partied, abused a…

[deleted]

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#158

Post by jdietrich »

fjdlwlv wrote: post #110
ryandrake wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's unfortunate. It's certainly by design. The societal purpose of public schooling is to prepare the future service workers and corporate drones of America to follow procedures and not get too curious. The (pre-determined) future leaders of America have their own track with private/prep schools, tutors, and Ivy League higher-ed, where the focus/purpose is, I would imagine, very different.

This is a silly myth. The privileged upper class don't get a special better-designrf education, they get a professional network that puts them in power regardless of their education. There's no special high school class that teaches "skills for becoming a CEO or a Congressperson".

Read up on English public (private) schools like Eton or Harrow. The privileged upper class do indeed get a special better-designed education.

These schools are factories for CEOs and politicians. They have the absolute best teaching, the best resources, a culture that not only encourages high achievement but expects it. If an Etonian or Harrovian says that he wants to be Prime Minister, nobody bats an eyelid - the odds are fairly good that he might well be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tcRXHyEKC4

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#159

Post by csa »

chetanahuja wrote: post #139

I'm currently facing this problem as a volunteer. I'm teaching coding to my son's 4th grade classroom and there are about 5 or so kids out of 30 who finish everything assigned really fast and have to wait for the others to catchup. On the other end of the spectrum, there are aoubt 4-5 kids who need some extra help while the rest of the class has moved on. I'm not a teacher by profession but this little volunteer effo…

For the fast kids, create your lessons with extensions. You can google it for more details on how to do this skillfully, but an extension is basically building something extra onto your first task. Note that good extensions are not busy work -- they typically either lead to the creation of a cool product or they introduce a new and related concept. Either way, good extensions are ones that motivate the middle kids to try to get to the extensions phase.

For the extra-help kids, the best thing to do during class is to have them work with a friend who got it. Sometimes their peers can communicate the key ideas better than you can. After the class, you can review the problematic ideas with them and/or give them extra problems for them to work on (if they are interested). You will win them over if you can review those extra problems with them at a later time (e.g., before the next class).

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#160

Post by alexpoulsen »

kosma wrote: post #149
zerr wrote: post #82

Nobody mentioned Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)?

I was surprised too, especially considering how hard it is to discern ASD symptoms caused by high IQ from high IQ caused by ASD. I fall in the middle of that Venn diagram, and unless there's some sort of miraculous scientific breakthrough in that area, I doubt I'll ever know for sure.

I had social anxiety. Got counseling around 3-4 years ago. Even though I was never formally diagnosed, my mother always thought I was somewhere on the Autism spectrum. Not enough to really hinder me at everything, but enough to make me socially incapable.

I've never taken an IQ test but I think I would score fairly high.

I've had a similar experience with the dumbing down in classrooms. (Probably many times before this but I have a memory that is totally shit at some things but great at others) So I'm taking a beginner programming class at college in python. About half way though the semester I finished the class barely working hard. I could have done in 2-4 weeks had I went through it as fast as possible. There was another session that was a bit faster but I was the first to finish by far. Some of the things other people struggled with kinda amazed me. Things I would do in 30 minutes to an hour they might take 3 plus days including the professor really helping them. Any time I tried to help, I quickly got frustrated since I wasn't going to tell them how exactly to do it. Also I taught myself nearly all the course material.

This was at an engineering/art/business private college (which only had a comp sci minor) which I'm transferring away from to do computer programming.

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