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Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

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Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#211

Post by psyc »

veddox wrote: post #168
psyc wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "My freedom to swing my fist ends where your face begins." Ever heard it? How could we ever escape it? I've been reading this smug, patronizing sentence on the Internet for 20 years. I've come to believe that this formulation is so important to the people who say it, because they know they're exceptionally punchable.

Hm, you have honestly intrigued me. How is that a "smug, patronizing sentence"? Could you imagine any society worth living in that is not based on this rule? To me, respecting another person's freedom is the only way to ever get anywhere close to a society that offers "liberty and justice for all". Can you offer an alternative approach?

I don't disagree. But it suggests an extremely low opinion of the intelligence of the audience to point it out. There's no need to point out to a civilized adult, especially professional, educated adults prevalent on a site like this, that freedom doesn't include violating others. And it's a strawman, because nobody is ever arguing that freedom includes violating others. What's usually being argued is whether a specific action should be considered a violation of others' rights, as opposed to those others being e.g. oversensitive, controlling, or intolerant.

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#213

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

vivekd wrote: post #127

I know some subreddits have "be kind and respectful" built into their rules, but this is often gamed by some redditors who will make carefully worded passive aggressive statements at ideological opponents and then quickly call for banning them when they react. There are also moderation issues with volunteer moderators sometimes using different standards of "kind and gentle" based on whether they agreed with the views…

I think you've hit on the core issue here. Whilst I abhor some of the hatred and viciousness posted online, and think it's absurd to try to turn it into a free speech issue, I can understand the benefit of no censorship: drawing the line, consistently, is very, very difficult - maybe impossible. But even reddit draws a line (US law?), so there's no getting away from it.

Does anyone here advocate 'free speech' so strongly that they wouldn't mind someone posting their personal details or naked photos online? I'm sure some people are so thick-skinned that they could handle that, but I certainly couldn't.

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#214

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

psyc wrote: post #212
hayd wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every link in the top four pages is about Trump...

Specifically, every link is strongly anti-Trump.

Is that subreddit US-only or global? Because whilst trump may enjoy 50% approval at home, his global approval tend towards 10-20%.

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#215

Post by Joeboy »

matt4077 wrote: post #200
gtaylor wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you further define "they"? Reddit has hundreds of thousands of communities in it. It seems like you are generalizing the actions of a tiny subset to the whole user base.

I was speaking about the part of the community that would be affected by "censorship", as should be obvious from context, i. e. the post I was replying to. Nobody is talking about /r/askahistorian

No, that wasn't at all obvious. If what you're saying is that the bad parts of reddit are bad then I agree with you.

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#216

Post by intortus »

vivekd wrote: post #208
intortus wrote: post #114

Hate speech, bullying, none of that shit needs to be protected speech. It's not as delicate or complicated as people who generally aren't on the receiving end of it try to make it out to be.

You're right, in many cases, hate speech and bullying are obvious and can be easily spotted. But there are always grey areas and disagreements where eradicating hate speech and bullying can also end up getting rid of speech with valid political dimensions. One sort of obvious case where important speech was classified as harmful is facebook's recent spat with the prime minister of Norwary over them censoring the famo…

The presence of grey areas does not invalidate the entire concept of "fuck off, nazis."

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#217

Post by Nomentatus »

skybrian wrote: post #202
morganvachon wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't upvote you enough. I've always likened Internet forums to having guests in my home. If I, as a forum owner, invite you into my home, you are expected to abide by the house rules. If my house rules allow you to destroy the furniture, insult my other guests, and generally raise hell, I won't yell at you for it. But if my rules forbid such activity, I'm well within my rights to kick your ass out. Free speech has…

That's correct as far as the law is concerned. However, when you have a very large social network like Twitter, Facebook or Reddit, things get more complicated. A forum's owner has some say but a lot of the conflicts are at the boundaries between forums, or involve the common rules that everyone should follow. It's not a government but at this scale, the moderation starts to look more like privately run governance, s…

True that. Public utilities (traditionally pretty much anything with a network effect) require regulation; the government must get involved, and then governmental ethics ought to apply.

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#218

Post by gonmf »

gkya wrote: post #118
rmc wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am staggered by the amount of people here who object to Imzy's "Be Nice"-policy on the basis that it limits free speech. It's especially curious, because HN does try to have a free speech uber alles approach. If limiting speech is good for HN, why isn't it good for Imzy? It's also important to remember that reddit is very pro-free speech, but bans some protected speech, namely, doxxing. Redditors started to dox p…

No right is limitless. I don't know about other countries but in elementary school where I am we're taught a person's freedom is limited by the freedoms of others , and freedom of speech is certainly limited by other people's human rights, including the right to human dignity. AFAIK the declaration of human rights include that right. There is no freedom without responsibility, and that's why people who aren't or can'…

I'll let you on on a secret that you aren't thought in elementary school. Real human rights are intrinsic and inalienable. Things like the right for your pursuit of happiness and freedom of thought and speech. All supposed rights that require other people's labor or permission (health, education, shelter) are bogus, they are just organizations moving goalposts. Real rights are not bestowed.

Bogus rights are to not be offended, not be attacked, be given dignity and respect. Real rights are to defend yourself, stand your ground and use your body how you want. You just want a few more social norms in some spheres of interaction than some of your neighbors that's all.

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#219

Post by intortus »

makomk wrote: post #180
intortus wrote: post #114

Hate speech, bullying, none of that shit needs to be protected speech. It's not as delicate or complicated as people who generally aren't on the receiving end of it try to make it out to be.

I knew I recognized that username from somewhere. It is indeed neither delicate nor complicated so long as you define hate speech and bullying by whether one particular clique supports it or is against it, since by definition they're always going to have a firm indisputable conclusion on it and anyone who disagrees is the enemy. You don't even have to worry about that clique doxing, harassing or lying about others si…

White hood wearing motherfuckers chomping at the bit to call black people "chimps" is not merely some alternative "clique", as you disingenuously suggest. The problem with tolerance of the intolerant is that you end up with an authoritarian monoculture where speech is much less free than it could have been.

Re: Imzy wants to be a kinder, gentler version of Reddit

#220

Post by tdkl »

veddox wrote: post #149
matt4077 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a large part the difference is what comedians call "punching up" vs. "punching down" – Making fun of born-again christians is a bit more legitimate because they're 40% of the (US) population and have an insane amount of power compared to the hardcore atheists insulting them. It's quite different from being a muslim in a predominantly christian country being subjected to abuse by the majority. It's also a bit more…

> It's quite different from being a muslim in a predominantly christian country being subjected to abuse by the majority. Hm, interesting that you choose the example going that way. Not to deny that Muslims face discrimination in the West, but have you had a look at what life is like for Christians in Muslim countries?

Muslims face discrimination not because they're Muslims, but because they fail to integrate in the Western society as citizens first. Islam is a law and government doctrine.
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