Developers’ side projects • Hacker News Board

Re: Developers’ side projects

#351

Post by a_e_k » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 7:37 PM UTC

wallstop wrote: post #332

a_e_k wrote: post #84

Where I work, there's a fairly streamlined process for getting waivers for side projects, including open source contributions. Fill out a page-long form broadly describing the intended side project and send it to Legal. If approved (and I've never had one rejected), a couple of weeks later they send back two copies of a document signed by them saying that the employee promises not to use company time or resources for…

While it's great that you've never had one rejected, what would happen if that event occurred? Imagine a situation where you submit a proposal for a completely unrelated project, that you really want to happen, and they deny it? Further conversations, talks, they don't budge. What then?

Assuming I felt that passionately about it? I'd start looking for other employment.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#352

Post by ns8sl » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

And of course, nothing stops an employer from harassing you legally.

I was working on a personal project once and it seemed to make sense to join it with another product from another company. We collaborated on the combination design, but never moved forward with it. I never joined the company and I was never compensated in any way. No joint product or code or anything was ever produced.

However, the CEO of that company threatened me with legal action when I joined a different company to implement what I was working on. He sent a cease and desist to me and the company. I had to retain a lawyer to fend that off. Luckily, the accusations were so ridiculous it wasn't hard.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#353

Post by Xeoncross » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

teach wrote: post #194

rjurney wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, but if you don't you need to understand how bad your state is fucking you by seeing how good we have it in California.

On the other hand, in Texas my quite nice house cost less than $300,000, my state government is totally solvent, and very little is on fire or running out of water. Your standard contracts may be better, but California certainly has its share of drawbacks. And did you know there's a Fry's and an In-N-Out burger within ten miles of my house?

Your comment made my day. The struggle's real and I've been appreciating all Texas has to offer.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#354

Post by avmich » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

What about a situation when you develop something in a company, then company doesn't show interest in it and effectively shelve it, and then you leave the company and want to come back to developing it? Be it in another company, which is yours or not?

Technically it's a property of the previous company. However if you later enhanced and expanded it further, you ought to have a share. And in practice, don't we have some good examples of startups which were built on ideas initially rejected?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#355

Post by ricardobeat » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #339

ascotan wrote: post #336

This article is FUD. Employer contracts are concerned that you are attempting to take company proprietary information and repackage it on your own time for sale. This sort of behavior clearly falls into 'inventions'. However, most of the contracts I've seen have a clause which states that the invention must be related to the business of the company. If you work in the games industry and make games on your own time fo…

Everything you write here is consistent with the article. What are you actually disagreeing with?

Not at all. The bottom line of the article is 'your employer owns everything you do during the employment period, quit if you don't agree'.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#356

Post by nightski » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

zenlikethat wrote: post #348

Tharkun wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? Don't work for companies that are dicks. If there's crap about them wanting to own you or your thoughts, don't sign it and get a different job elsewhere. Remember when little kids…

> Don't work for companies that are dicks. If there's crap about them wanting to own you or your thoughts, don't sign it and get a different job elsewhere. That's Joel's whole point, almost every single company had these restrictions written into your contract. And it's not possible to know if they're "the nice ones" who won't sue you ahead of time.

Simple. Don't work as an employee. This is the one industry where it really isn't that difficult. I took the leap 5 years ago and within 3 years quadrupled my income and have complete autonomy and freedom.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#357

Post by hkon » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 8:22 PM UTC

nightski wrote: post #356

zenlikethat wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't work for companies that are dicks. If there's crap about them wanting to own you or your thoughts, don't sign it and get a different job elsewhere. That's Joel's whole point, almost every single company had these restrictions written into your contract. And it's not possible to know if they're "the nice ones" who won't sue you ahead of time.

Simple. Don't work as an employee. This is the one industry where it really isn't that difficult. I took the leap 5 years ago and within 3 years quadrupled my income and have complete autonomy and freedom.

I did this as well. Best thing I ever did. However I find that when Isuggest this, people have all the reasons in the world not to. More $€ for us then.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#358

Post by krschultz » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 8:40 PM UTC

zerkten wrote: post #208

krschultz wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't even tell your employer about side projects. Leave them out of the loop entirely." Early in my career I did this. Now I go the exact opposite tack. Tell your employer. Get it cleared in writing. If you work at a company where that is a problem, then consider your side projects non-commercial for perpetuity, or get a new job.

Any tips for the things that should be covered? Do you actually go into a lot of detail, or do you just suggest that the high-level area, and whether it's a commercial endeavor?

I just go really high level. Larger companies usually have a process, sometimes it is categorized under "conflicts of interest". My current side projects are non-commercial, so I just put together a 3 sentence description of the project & a link to the GitHub page. Generally if the lawyers have any questions then I answer those, but I don't go overboard providing info. In the end it's better for everyone to have clarity.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#359

Post by ryandrake » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 8:58 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #347

ryandrake wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just fill out the stupid invention disclosure form thingy your company almost certainly has, and quit if they give you any shit about it. It's too good a job market to take this risk in. I'm not quite sure this is good general advice. It may work for the top 0.01% of talent in Silicon Valley who can quit their job and find another one right away, but that's not the case for the vast majority of tech folks. My compa…

So I understand exactly what you're saying, but I'm not sure you've thought this through: a company that is openly hostile to side projects is likely to be the worst case scenario when it comes to the commercialization of side projects that weren't disclosed to it.

I'm agreeing--it's the worst case. Safest advise is no side projects, if you plan to retain IP ownership of them.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#360

Post by tptacek » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:00 PM UTC

derekp7 wrote: post #199

kasey_junk wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the state, but many assume you are competent to negotiate these issues before accepting employment.

Right, but what I'm talking about is a case where they fail to give that form to you until after your start date (and of course, after you've left your previous job). So they have the advantage -- either you sign the form, or you get fired on your first day of work. Too bad that most states won't consider this "signing under duress".

Since you can be terminated for any reason or no reason at all in pretty much every state in the US, I'd be surprised if any state considered this "duress". The expectation is that you can simply quit if presented with a contract you don't like (or, for that matter, if your salary is cut in half).