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Developers’ side projects

joelonsoftware.com

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Re: Developers’ side projects

#281

Post by csomar »

ivanhoe wrote: post #279

Why not just ask for a permission from the management? Drop 'em an email, explain what kind of side projects you plan and that the work will be done strictly in your free time and not interfere with you work for them. It's 99% that they'll answer it's OK, it's at that early point insignificant issue for them, and later that email response is legally binding as much as any contract. Of course, it's a smart move that y…

I highly doubt they'll answer "Ok". That makes the contract void and pointless.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#282

Post by ap22213 »

vinceguidry wrote: post #268
wfunction wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh, so I assume not something a typical employee could do. Thanks!

The way you handle this as a typical employee is to not work for dicks. That way when they see you being successful they cheer you on rather than try to bring you down. Also, you don't always have no leverage to negotiate contract terms. When I separated from my last job, my severance agreement as given to me included a 2 year gag clause keeping me from talking about it to anyone. I negotiated it down to six months,…

Just be careful. A company and its board isn't a person - it's a legal entity. The company exists solely to make profit. That's it. And, the company will do everything in its legal power to do so. It doesn't matter what the intent of the founders were, nor how nice your boss or even the current owners are. They are not the company.

Plus, I've seen way too many nice people turn into 'dicks' when it came down to money. This is the primary reason why it's a bad idea to go into business with friends or relatives.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#283

Post by vinceguidry »

ap22213 wrote: post #282
vinceguidry wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you handle this as a typical employee is to not work for dicks. That way when they see you being successful they cheer you on rather than try to bring you down. Also, you don't always have no leverage to negotiate contract terms. When I separated from my last job, my severance agreement as given to me included a 2 year gag clause keeping me from talking about it to anyone. I negotiated it down to six months,…

Just be careful. A company and its board isn't a person - it's a legal entity. The company exists solely to make profit. That's it. And, the company will do everything in its legal power to do so. It doesn't matter what the intent of the founders were, nor how nice your boss or even the current owners are. They are not the company. Plus, I've seen way too many nice people turn into 'dicks' when it came down to money.…

I'd argue that the primary reason you don't go into business with friends or relatives because 99% of the time, they're not looking to do any real work or take on any real risk. Hire friends and relatives after the business is de-risked, not before.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#284

Post by greggman »

gumby wrote: post #212
greggman wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't fit my understanding of the law. Do you have references? The law has this concept of "duty of loyalty" which basically says by being an employee you are promising to do what's best for the company. As one example that means not competing against the company. In otherwords even if it's not related to your specific job you can not work on a product that competes with the company. https://en.m.wikipedia.org…

> That doesn't fit my understanding of the law. Do you have references? Do you live in California? If not, I have no idea what law applies to you and your work. But if you live in California you are in luck: Section 2872 of the labor code is explicit in this matter. In fact every employee assignment agreement I have handed out to someone I've hired (going back to 1989) has included the text of that section, for examp…

You seem to have left out this entire paragraph in your summary of the law you sited

> a. Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice to Company’s business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#285

Post by hellofunk »

My three colleagues and I just took a look at our contracts after reading this. We are contractors, not employees. We saw this interesting phrase:

"Contractor may provide services to third parties so long as Contractor does not provide any software development services to other entities. "

"Other entities" is an interesting term. Since the contractor is explicitly mentioned in the text separate from these third parties or other entities, it would seem the contract does not prohibit the contractor doing work for himself.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#286

Post by heisenbit »

brilliantcode wrote: post #111

I feel like this article grossly exaggerated the nature of the laws and relationship between you and the employer. I think it's a good thing that Joel isn't a lawyer because anyone following his advice will lead to implosion. First, there is a very high bar for what is regarded the property of the company vs your own work. Even if you created your own open source project website and pushed code on your own github acc…

This may be violating your employment agreement as you are now providing services to another legal entity.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#287

Post by zodiac »

sgentle wrote: post #189

I find this mindset totally disgusting, but I'm glad it's been summed up in such a concise way. > Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. Let's clarify that phrase, "sell your intellectual output". Keep in mind that earlier in the article we discov…

What is the alternative though? Through the article Joel gave reasons as to why those two limits can't be placed (even if the company was nice and wanted to)

Re: Developers’ side projects

#288

Post by dkersten »

hashhar wrote: post #272
leggomylibro wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the first point, big companies clearly feel that they can claim any project that is related to the company's lines of work, not yours. Companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have arms for hardware design, video game development, web development, close-to-the-metal graphical programming, embedded systems, retail...that's not just big enough to drive a truck through, it's big enough for that platform they truc…

I will be starting at the job the next summer (graduating next summer) and I too thought the same. If I didn't use the company's infrastructure or their internal technology or do the work while on company time (9 to 5) - then they should not be able to claim my work. TL;DR If you could not have built the product without being an employee of the company, it probably belongs to them. eg. Maybe you use Microsoft's lates…

Using an internal HoloLens prototype is the same as using their equipment or infrastructure. It belongs to them and you're using it.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#290

Post by red_admiral »

I'm not familiar with the US legal system but this sounds to me like solving the wrong problem. Take the example of the game developer - why can't you create a contract that says you pay her for 6 game ideas, including the IP to these games?

It shouldn't matter if she comes up with those ideas during 9-5 or any other time. It shouldn't matter if she comes up with another 4 ideas of her own on the side, or even works part-time for someone else too. You're paying for an outcome, 6 games including all associated IP because that's what you're going to sell on to the public.

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