Live data from Hacker News

Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

economist.com

31–40 of 93 posts

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#31
post #12
post #4

Paper elections are cheap, reliable and more importantly trustworthy even to people that have no idea what a symmetric key, hash or blockchain even is. But we had to go and screw up by creating extremely insecure voting machines and then come up with crazy schemes like this one to fix them. Do people really think all this complexity is a good thing? Paper elections are very well understood but you can easily come up…

Paper voting doesn't allow for much more citizen involvement than most "democratic" countries have today. You can hold elections every few years, maybe a referendum once or twice a year at most, but any more than that and it becomes inconvenient, inefficient and not so cheap. As a citizen, I want to be more involved. Even in a representative democracy, I want to hold my representatives responsible for their actions.…

An interesting proposal in this area is Google's "Liquid Voting", which implements an idea that I've wanted to see tried for a long time.

Essentially votes can be cast on every subject (for the very interested voters), or delegated to another representative (for the less interested voters).

This could have some interesting side-effects, not all positive; I'd expect volatility and cult of personality to increase. But then that's the trajectory of politics in general recently, so perhaps there's not much more to lose. Benefits would include the ability for voters to actually enact the legislation that they want, but which no legislators will choose to implement (e.g. anti-corruption/insider trading laws).

[edit: link is here: http://www.tdcommons.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&co...]

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#32
post #31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper voting doesn't allow for much more citizen involvement than most "democratic" countries have today. You can hold elections every few years, maybe a referendum once or twice a year at most, but any more than that and it becomes inconvenient, inefficient and not so cheap. As a citizen, I want to be more involved. Even in a representative democracy, I want to hold my representatives responsible for their actions.…

An interesting proposal in this area is Google's "Liquid Voting", which implements an idea that I've wanted to see tried for a long time. Essentially votes can be cast on every subject (for the very interested voters), or delegated to another representative (for the less interested voters). This could have some interesting side-effects, not all positive; I'd expect volatility and cult of personality to increase. But…

I wonder how this compares to the Pirate Parties Liquid Feedback voting system. On first glance they seem similar.

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#33
There are many weaknesses in this system.

The first clause of Design Considerations, "Although elegant and (thus far) invincible," shows a lack of understanding of currently possible and prior blockchain attacks.

This protocol allows voting any Voter ID multiple times. There is a significant window of time until one of the blocks containing the Voter ID/ballot ID Hash is added to the block chain. During this time, all Voter IDs in the prospective block may be voted multiple times. This can occur by making a copy of a physical voter ID and simply using it twice at relatively the same time - just not on the same terminal. The exploitability chance increases as the number of votes per block increases. The blockchain plus the union of all unsent blocks for all terminals, not a local database, should be checked for who has voted. This is compounded by not checking when the blocks are added to the blockchain.

Another issue with the local database, is that even if it is made to be a site database, many jurisdictions with early voting allow voters to vote anywhere, not just at their assigned voting location.

The selected candidates are not signed properly with a voter's key. There is no assurance that a particular voter actually cast a vote for a specific candidate and not, say, "Mickey Mouse." This is actually one of the purposes of smart cards and similar. Beyond any protocol issues, this is the central purpose of any voting system, to ensure that when votes are cast the voter id is redacted but that that voter id's candidate selection can be validated!

The Central Admin should release the list of the machine's public keys _prior_ to the election not _after_.

There really are a lot of security issues with this security design.

That being said, this paper is the winner of a cyber challenge here: http://www.economist.com/whichmba/mba-case-studies/cyber-sec...

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#34
post #30
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to trust them that much, though. These are all COTS components used in every other computerized system everywhere, so any backdoors the authors want to slip in would have to impact only the voting system, and not raise anyone else's attention. That's pretty hard. How, for example, are you going to get a CPU bug to do this for you? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's sort of like saying that we're…

> so any backdoors the authors want to slip in would have to impact only the voting system, and not raise anyone else's attention. Except that many of the backdoors are universal backdoors, meaning that they can be remotely updated with new instructions.

People still look for backdoors of that type, though.

Additionally, if you really made something that specific, that was only ever discovered and used to hack an election, and the only people that could have done it were the chip vendor... how do you think that will play out when it's discovered? Or do you, as the attacker, bank on no one ever discovering this, ever?

If you're an engineer working for one of these places, how much do you have to get paid, or what do you have to be threatened with, to make this work out?

This seems much more like a novel written by Ian Fleming, not le Carre...

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#35
post #26
post #6

Looking at the "Voting Machine Security Specifications", it's a verified OS image connecting to a VPN over the internet on election day. This means that you have to trust the: * VPN * OS * Network stack * Display and input drivers (HW and SW) * SSD controller * CPU * CPU's "Management Engine" or equivalent * Mainboard chipset To all be free of exploits and backdoors. You're trusting many, many thousands of people, fr…

You don't have to trust them that much, though. These are all COTS components used in every other computerized system everywhere, so any backdoors the authors want to slip in would have to impact only the voting system, and not raise anyone else's attention. That's pretty hard. How, for example, are you going to get a CPU bug to do this for you? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's sort of like saying that we're…

To use your metaphor, yes if the military installed a single model of identical, network-connected engine in every vehicle they own, they would absolutely be fools. A single hack could, in a strategically critical moment, disable all motorized assets - every vehicle and generator in the US military shutting down at the same time. That's a disaster.

And you don't have to put in the backdoor just for the election. You can put one in and use it opportunistically. Someone backdoored a huge amount of Juniper VPN hardware, in hopes that it might be useful some day:

http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/01/juniper-drops-nsa-de...

And to answer your question, this is how you get silicon like a CPU to do what you want:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/05/backdoor_foun...

These are just two examples that made the news. It's a practical certainty that there's backdoors in all sorts of COTS components that we don't know about yet. At this point there's nothing above suspicion.

For the scheme in TFA to work, they need a unhackable computer. If there is a single exploit or backdoor that happens to be in it, whoever controls it can pick the US congress, the senate, and the POTUS. Not metaphorically, literally. How is taking that degree of risk, when you know that backdoors and exploits are commonplace, not incredibly foolish?

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#36
post #34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so any backdoors the authors want to slip in would have to impact only the voting system, and not raise anyone else's attention. Except that many of the backdoors are universal backdoors, meaning that they can be remotely updated with new instructions.

People still look for backdoors of that type, though. Additionally, if you really made something that specific, that was only ever discovered and used to hack an election, and the only people that could have done it were the chip vendor... how do you think that will play out when it's discovered? Or do you, as the attacker, bank on no one ever discovering this, ever? If you're an engineer working for one of these pla…

First, auditing the hundreds of millions of lines of code that it takes to build an OS and userspace every election and midterm is completely unrealistic. Especially given the degree of code obfuscation that is possible.

Second, at the silicon level there's billions of transistors in a CPU, silicon in general is prohibitively expensive to audit, and you can do malicious things by just putting in nigh-undetectable changes in dopant levels:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/surreptitious...

Third: you don't need to hide the hack forever. You just need to gain enough power in the election that you can suppress any further investigation.

Given the parade of hacks that make the HN front page every week, at all levels of government and industry, given that the well-funded and incredibly paranoid US military inadvertently deployed backdoored chips, given that existing voting machines have had demonstrable amateur-hour exploits in them:

http://fortune.com/2016/11/04/voting-machine-hack-watch-vide... http://www.pcworld.com/article/135461/article.html

is it really that difficult to believe that voting machines can be hacked?

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#37
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper voting doesn't allow for much more citizen involvement than most "democratic" countries have today. You can hold elections every few years, maybe a referendum once or twice a year at most, but any more than that and it becomes inconvenient, inefficient and not so cheap. As a citizen, I want to be more involved. Even in a representative democracy, I want to hold my representatives responsible for their actions.…

Some context: Switzerland has votes on issues about four times a year, and they managed to do this with paper, mostly via mail (if someone local knows otherwise, please correct me). Recently they tried out e-voting, with what I consider predictable results: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/voting-with-a-click_hacking-fear... Also, I agree with ianstormtaylor in that I don't think that what you're proposing would necessari…

> make good decisions on a scale of several years

I work with government often. I am often outside begging to be given access to help my community with one civic project or another. Interactions that take hours in open source communities, take months to coordinate with City staff.

I'm the last one to advocate taking the brakes off the car, but there are many many many parts of government where decisions require several years only because everything takes years to do. I think there is a perspective, if you step back to imagine this world, where we as citizens can participate and make the turn-around quicker. Not everywhere. Many government functions require care and caution and sober second/third/fourth thoughts.

But many of these actions need not take years, if we could re-imagine something better. And right now, the lifeblood of government runs like molasses, not because each slow process has been intentionally made slow, but because the processes and practices and hierarchies are structurally slow at their core. That's not clever slowness. That's a calcifying fossil.

I personally think giving citizens more decision-making access will keep civil servants on their toes, keep them learning, and speed up the cycle time in many needlessly slow areas of government.

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#38

I invented something like this myself that used a checksum based form of ensuring data can't be tampered with. The key point is that anyone can look up how it recorded THEIR vote without anyone else being able to. Uses a hash of social security number for that (plus other personal identifiers). Websites can be written to allow a simple form-based trivially simple gui that allows anyone to look up how their vote was r…

Any system that allows someone to confirm their vote is a system that allows people to be forced to vote for someone.

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#39
post #4

Paper elections are cheap, reliable and more importantly trustworthy even to people that have no idea what a symmetric key, hash or blockchain even is. But we had to go and screw up by creating extremely insecure voting machines and then come up with crazy schemes like this one to fix them. Do people really think all this complexity is a good thing? Paper elections are very well understood but you can easily come up…

Paper-based elections are not cheap. Blockchain-based elections would have so many advantages, it's not even worth debating it against paper-based.

Re: Votebook – A proposal for a blockchain-based electronic voting system [pdf]

#40
post #4

Paper elections are cheap, reliable and more importantly trustworthy even to people that have no idea what a symmetric key, hash or blockchain even is. But we had to go and screw up by creating extremely insecure voting machines and then come up with crazy schemes like this one to fix them. Do people really think all this complexity is a good thing? Paper elections are very well understood but you can easily come up…

Paper-based elections are not cheap. Blockchain-based elections would have so many advantages, it's not even worth debating it against paper-based.

The value in transparency, auditability, and ease-of-understanding by the electorate can't be so easily dismissed. Compare paper currency and bitcoin. What percentage of the public trust and use cash over bitcoin? What kind of public awareness campaign would need to be launched to convince people to trust blockchain-based elections over paper? People who have studied voting in general and applying cryptographic techniques to voting also have questions about using any type of electronic devices in recording votes. It's by no means a settled question.
Post reply on HN