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Developers’ side projects

joelonsoftware.com

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Re: Developers’ side projects

#71

Post by doczoidberg »

dom0 wrote: post #52
lomnakkus wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The employer owns the code you contributed to a FOSS project. I think this is a pretty US-only type thing; at least it's not very common in Europe. Usually (in Europe) ownership of code depends entirely on when you did the coding -- if it's on your own time you own the code. If it's when you're at work then obviously it's the company's code. Of course there are the usual caveats about "is it too closely related to…

Indeed. Example: In Germany you usually have some paragraphs on this in the (work) contract (there are a couple popular variations - there isn't much leeway provided by German law here, which is good). "We own everything you do" is definitely illegal in Germany, and also not put into work contracts (such a clause would be void anyway). The legal construction is basically that the employee grants an exclusive, irrevoc…

can you give me a link for the german law?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#72

Post by mindcrime »

chiph wrote: post #6
LeanderK wrote: post #2

this is an absurd agreement, i have never heard of something like this in germany. Is this common in other countries?

US employee here - I've signed one (plus a patents & inventions at one firm) at every firm I've worked at since 2000 or so. Thus far any side projects haven't been a problem for them, as I have made sure to target a different industry. But legally , they could have enforced the contract and taken possession of my code.

But legally, they could have enforced the contract and taken possession of my code.

Not necessarily. Depending on what state you live in, there's a good chance that agreement would violate state law and would be unenforceable.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#73

Post by maxxxxx »

spacelizard wrote: post #18

It's disappointing that there are no conventions or legislation to rectify this situation. I have several side projects going right now, and it gets frustrating going to interviews and being asked to give up all of it just for the supposed "privilege" of being able to write code for a larger company. The solution I've found is freelancing, but this has the problem of not really providing steady work.

In my view there should be clear laws for this kind of stuff. Right now everything is about the employer's interest. Nobody cares about the employees.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#74

Post by rqebmm »

skybrian wrote: post #35
nostromo wrote: post #31

This is a good article, but the "let them eat cake"-iness of the last paragraph is pretty chilling. > the only way to gain independence is to be independent. Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. I was hoping for a closing argument about how thou…

Yes, it seems weird that he doesn't say how to fix this: Get written agreement from your employer that your side project is your own. Some employers even have a standard process for doing this. They might say no, but then you know not to put any more work into it.

This is true, but ultimately if your company wants to be a dick about it, you could still end up having to fight them in court. They just have to say "when we signed that form you said it was a app, but now it's turned into a app which competes with our business. Hand it over."

As Joel says, a judge/jury will probably be inclined to find for you, but you still have go through the pain and cost of litigation. Also, while it's not usually in a company's best interest to pick legal fights with their employees, the catch-22 is this: the only time it's worth it for them to be dicks is when/if your business takes off. I'm sure your employer doesn't care about your little news aggregator until you're shopping around for $100 million in VC funding.

Ultimately he's right. If you seriously want to start a side business, quit your day job.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#75

Post by uiri »

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

Don't even tell your employer about side projects. Leave them out of the loop entirely.

This depends heavily on the employer.

Google, for instance, is extremely friendly towards both side projects (done entirely on your own time and with your own equipment) and open source contributions done either on or off company time.

I wish more employers had the same level of transparency.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#76

Post by pfranz »

tetrep wrote: post #63

> Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty. > ... > So before you hire this developer, you agree, “hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in t…

I furrowed my brow at that example, too. He may have been simplifying or misrepresenting reality. I would think it's disingenuous that you're presenting all 7 of those games as projects done on the company time (unless there is something to insinuate you were forced to work off the clock for free--which wouldn't be different than any other kind of work).

Lets say, without notifying my boss, I went on vacation and refactored some company code I maintain, then checked it in when I got back. I can't imagine claiming that as my own unless there were other shady things going on.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#77

Post by savanaly »

nostromo wrote: post #31

This is a good article, but the "let them eat cake"-iness of the last paragraph is pretty chilling. > the only way to gain independence is to be independent. Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. I was hoping for a closing argument about how thou…

I think the article was supposed to be informational, and from the perspective of the average software developer (who will almost certainly never have any contact with Fog Creek), rather than promotional and from the perspective of a tech CEO.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#78

Post by maxxxxx »

mindcrime wrote: post #72
chiph wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US employee here - I've signed one (plus a patents & inventions at one firm) at every firm I've worked at since 2000 or so. Thus far any side projects haven't been a problem for them, as I have made sure to target a different industry. But legally , they could have enforced the contract and taken possession of my code.

But legally, they could have enforced the contract and taken possession of my code. Not necessarily. Depending on what state you live in, there's a good chance that agreement would violate state law and would be unenforceable.

Even winning a lawsuit costs a lot of money and stress. Unless there is a law that makes courts throw out frivolous lawsuits immediately the employer with lawyers on staff still can make your life very difficult

Re: Developers’ side projects

#79

Post by mindcrime »

maxxxxx wrote: post #78
mindcrime wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But legally, they could have enforced the contract and taken possession of my code. Not necessarily. Depending on what state you live in, there's a good chance that agreement would violate state law and would be unenforceable.

Even winning a lawsuit costs a lot of money and stress. Unless there is a law that makes courts throw out frivolous lawsuits immediately the employer with lawyers on staff still can make your life very difficult

No doubt. I'm certainly not claiming the current situation is ideal. Just pointing out that it's not always as bad as people think.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#80

Post by savanaly »

dpc59 wrote: post #42
nostromo wrote: post #31

This is a good article, but the "let them eat cake"-iness of the last paragraph is pretty chilling. > the only way to gain independence is to be independent. Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. I was hoping for a closing argument about how thou…

It ticks me off how a lot of managers always forget about how the job market is a buyer's market when they write about it.

"Buyer's market" seems like it doesn't apply to this. Both sides in the market have ample selection and competition. I'd have a hard time saying which side you even mean is favored if you said it was imbalanced. Software companies seem to search vigorously for good hires and vice versa-- the sign of a healthy and competitive market.
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