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Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

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Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#51

Post by onion2k »

StavrosK wrote: post #46
onion2k wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "opportunity"? If you were unfortunate enough to attend a school that didn't have any sort of computing classes, after school groups, etc, or you lived somewhere rural that didn't have those programmes outside of school then you would have had no access to a mentor who can guide you. If they have 3 months to go to a camp, surely they could as well learn at home for those 3 months. In order to lear…

> If you were unfortunate enough to attend a school that didn't have any sort of computing classes, after school groups, etc, or you lived somewhere rural that didn't have those programmes outside of school then you would have had no access to a mentor who can guide you. I grew up in a small Greek village at a time when very few people knew what a computer was. My first exposure to programming was finding a CD with a…

I don't believe courses are necessary if you want to learn programming.

You're wrong. There are lots of developers who are self-taught, and just like you they didn't need a course. That's awesome. Similarly though there are lots of other developers who aren't self-taught, and for whom the process of how to think about code didn't "click" with them until they were taught the basics. Those developers needed a course.

People aren't all the same, so what works for one person won't necessarily work for another, and given the number of developers society will need in the future we will have to afford opportunities to every type of learner.

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#52

Post by berntb »

onion2k wrote: post #51
StavrosK wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you were unfortunate enough to attend a school that didn't have any sort of computing classes, after school groups, etc, or you lived somewhere rural that didn't have those programmes outside of school then you would have had no access to a mentor who can guide you. I grew up in a small Greek village at a time when very few people knew what a computer was. My first exposure to programming was finding a CD with a…

I don't believe courses are necessary if you want to learn programming. You're wrong. There are lots of developers who are self-taught, and just like you they didn't need a course. That's awesome. Similarly though there are lots of other developers who aren't self-taught, and for whom the process of how to think about code didn't "click" with them until they were taught the basics. Those developers needed a course. P…

>> given the number of developers society will need in the future

It really is 1999 all over again. :-( :-)

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#53

Post by digi_owl »

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #2

The future of programming is programming. What's described in the article is indeed true, you can build stuff without syntax, you can extend it, etc. But who is this for? I am not a fan of the "Let's teach everyone to code" rhetoric, because this is same as "let's teach everyone to play the piano", or "Let's teach everyone to be good at math!". People who will code will code even if you don't push them to. And most o…

As best i can tell even if just a few will end up actively code, at least most will have a passing familiarity with software internals and thus make more realistic demands of both the software and the programmers.

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#54

Post by TheBobinator »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #33
TheBobinator wrote: post #19

We demo'd a software called filebound earlier this year when looking at a document management solution and it left a hell of an impression on me. Most business systems are built off of the concept of the "enterprise infrastructure" being the printing press for the front end infrastructure, and the back office being the back end infrastructure. When the Xerox printer was first introduced, you had a "rapid prototyping"…

In my experience where these products struggle is they are often sold as a solution where the users can create a system without being programmers. The reality is although they can make life easier they don't take away the need to be able to decompose a requirement into its relevant parts. You still need to think like a programmer to use them well.

100% agree.

Managers are a reactive occupation, business analysts are a proactive occupation. Where they meet and compromise is on the business system. Good business analysts understand the market play and plan the reactions of the managers.

Advertising and Sales often targets victim's "reptilian brains", finding methods to control conversations and execute methods of exploit that force an endorphin dump. I've found it quite useful to criticize managers in very cruel ways, e.g. "That Sales guy gave us nothing solid; lots of power words, metered speech, and other sales tricks, and a whole lot of managers around a table endorphin-dumping themselves over it. What an incredible circus." From there you can carefully deconstruct sentences and show management their understanding of what they are getting into is very abstract and fluid.

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#55

Post by digi_owl »

origami777 wrote: post #14
cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #2

The future of programming is programming. What's described in the article is indeed true, you can build stuff without syntax, you can extend it, etc. But who is this for? I am not a fan of the "Let's teach everyone to code" rhetoric, because this is same as "let's teach everyone to play the piano", or "Let's teach everyone to be good at math!". People who will code will code even if you don't push them to. And most o…

I think the world would be a much better place if we exchanged "everyone learns to code" with "everyone learns safe and secure computer practices". That doesn't have the same ring to it but it's more important. Let's learn now to not open malware attachments before learning an if loop.

Given that even people that work with _sec 24/7 violate best practices left and right, i fear that it will be a futile effort.

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#56

Post by jholman »

mrob wrote: post #24
onion2k wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who will code will code even if you don't push them to. The booming industry of coding boot camps shows that there are a large number of people who want to code but didn't have the opportunity or knowledge to learn until they were old enough and wealthy enough to pay for private tuition. I would argue that is strong evidence that your assertion is wrong - it's a reasonable assumption there are a number of peop…

I suspect the majority of those coding boot camp customers do not want to code, but want money, and see coding as an easy way to get it.

Why do you suspect that?

Having talked with over 200 of them, I'd suggest that just like people in most career training programs, there's something about the job (as they imagine it) that attracts them relative to other jobs. "Huh, that looks like a good job, and I suspect I can do it, maybe I should invest some time and money into finding out!"

I don't think anyone thinks it's a get-rich-quick plan; no one expects it to be easy. And if they do think that, they revise their estimates on the first day of bootcamp. But many of them DO suspect that as a career, coding pays well relative to the amount of work it is, and has good growth prospects. I too believe that, so I'm sympathetic to their perspective, although I doubt it's the BEST career in those aspects (I hear trades are really quite lucrative). The degree of "passion" for various particular aspects of the career is variable (e.g. desire to do the act of coding, e.g. desire to produce software, e.g. desire to work in startups, e.g. desire to make mad bank, e.g. desire to have flexible working conditions, e.g. desire to get paid to do math). Few of them have had wildly successful careers in other domains (I believe that between 1% and 3% of my sample were already making six figures in another career), so the majority are hoping that this will be their successful career.

In summary, it is true that all of them expect that learning to code might be somewhat economically productive, but your phrasing is condescending and nasty. Don't be nasty.

Disclaimer: I have a vested interest in bootcamps being at least somewhat successful.

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#57

Post by mrob »

onion2k wrote: post #41
mrob wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the majority of those coding boot camp customers do not want to code, but want money, and see coding as an easy way to get it.

You have no evidence for that, and it's a pretty horrible thing to say about the people who take those courses.

What's horrible about that? People doing things for the money is the driving force behind capitalism, the best economic system yet invented. It improves everybody's quality of life. I have no objection to people going to coding boot camps because they think it will help them make money, and I hope they succeed.

But I don't think coding boot camps are evidence for great love for coding for its own sake. People who really want to code will find some way to do it no matter what. They don't need paid tuition.

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#58

Post by onion2k »

mrob wrote: post #57
onion2k wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no evidence for that, and it's a pretty horrible thing to say about the people who take those courses.

What's horrible about that? People doing things for the money is the driving force behind capitalism, the best economic system yet invented. It improves everybody's quality of life. I have no objection to people going to coding boot camps because they think it will help them make money, and I hope they succeed. But I don't think coding boot camps are evidence for great love for coding for its own sake. People who rea…

People wanting money is fine. It was the assertion that they "see coding as an easy way to get it" that's too harsh. In my experience people who have been through coding bootcamps are very aware that they're learning something hard and that they'll need to put in a lot of effort, and that they're starting a new career where they'll be a junior in their first role unless they're very lucky.

Re: Why I Believe Scratch Is the Future of Programming

#60

Post by cocktailpeanuts »

richmarr wrote: post #16
cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #2

The future of programming is programming. What's described in the article is indeed true, you can build stuff without syntax, you can extend it, etc. But who is this for? I am not a fan of the "Let's teach everyone to code" rhetoric, because this is same as "let's teach everyone to play the piano", or "Let's teach everyone to be good at math!". People who will code will code even if you don't push them to. And most o…

Arguing that people who don't already code shouldn't code assumes people make perfectly informed career choices based on their pre-determined personal traits. I strongly recommend reading Dweck's work on mindsets to dissuade you of the belief that aptitude for things like Mathematics is a fixed trait rather than something that can be changed. I think it's also helpful to recognise that the group that are exposed to p…

> Arguing that people who don't already code shouldn't code

I'm sorry, I'm having hard time finding where I said that. Please do point me to an excerpt.

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