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You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

medium.freecodecamp.com

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Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#71

Post by somecallitblues »

mixedCase wrote: post #18
CN7R wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have research, a computer science degree and a boot camp certificate are very different in terms of education. The former focuses on depth and the fundamentals of CS. The latter is more practical and focuses implementation where languages matter more.

I don't think there are that many people deluded to the fact that a 4/5 year long CS course teaches you more than a boot camp. But as many few people will dispute that you can get started writing production code much faster in the latter. And what I will add, is that they'll be an average 80% as good as their fresh out of uni CS peers, if not more.

This is spot on. I've employed 2 people in the last year and I can say that the guy with a CS degree had heard of binary tree and big O notation but has no idea about how everything ties together. And CSS and HTML concepts are totally foreign to him. CS degrees are stuck in C land, learning shitty bubble sort implementation in C++ and other crap that doesn't help day to day at all.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#72

Post by shubb »

sndean wrote: post #15
wyldfire wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ludicrous, IMO. I think that people who are in the market for a $15k coding bootcamp should steer way clear of K&R (and LCTHW). Why? Because C is not the right tool for 95% of the jobs the coding bootcamp crowd will be asked to solve. Don't get me wrong, C's great and I followed your three-step process over the years. But we don't need to do that anymore because most devs will just eke out the slimmest benefit…

> Because C is not the right tool for 95% of the jobs the coding bootcamp crowd will be asked to solve. I'm curious about this point. Are the large majority of coding bootcamps teaching JavaScript and Ruby because of the number of jobs available in that market? Would anyone (hopefully, the bootcampers) benefit if there were a bootcamp teaching C?

C is largely used for embedded / engineering / systems work. That work largely gets done at engineering companies that also employe mechanical and structural engineers.

They like degrees and apprenticeships as routes to entry - the coding camp crowd might be able to find an equivalent apprenticeship and grow out of that into engineering work. But they won't recruit to an engineering role out of a bootcamp.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#73

Post by John23832 »

linkregister wrote: post #45
Spooky23 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but those certifications are pretty low value. The A+, etc solely exist because the federal government requires them for contractors. Code bootcamps do provide some usefulness, and you could problably look at that syllabus and come up with a more portable ciriculum that you could teach to people with aptitude but without credentials. It would be great to use something like this in civil service and other…

Which companies are disregarding state school graduates? Don't Amazon, Facebook, et. al. send recruiting teams to most state schools?

I got an offer from Facebook and I went to Virginia Tech, a state school.

I think it depends on the quality/prestige of the CS program.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#74

Post by 40_pending »

There are definitely options between free and 15k. I went to an online code bootcamp and paid about 4k. The course came with about 18 hours of one-on-one mentor sessions, an all original curriculum, office-hours chat help, a generally good community, and job prep help.

In hindsight, yeah, I could have made up my own curriculum from free and cheap sources, and just paid a mentor out of pocket for a lot less. But I had already done Treehouse and Codeschool courses and found I hit a barrier. A lot of what I was learning just did not stick beyond a certain point and I could not see the forest for the trees.

I know it's not for everyone, but it turns out what worked for me was a highly structured course with a focus on building practical projects, checkpoints, deadlines, and one-on-one guidance. And maybe I did need to sink a non-trivial amount of money into it just to make me take it all a little more seriously.

In any case, I was able to switch careers (at the age of 40 I might add) and I've paid off my investment many times over.

Regardless of whether you are considering a paid bootcamp, a free one, learning by yourself, or getting a traditional college education, my advice would be the same:

You get out of it, what you put into it.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#75

Post by alexbanks »

menssen wrote: post #19

"'Teaching highly motivated students to code is actually not that hard.' — Dan Sofer" This broadly matches my experience. The hiring and interviewing of bootcamp graduates I've done has made me thing it's really just an intense vetting process for junior developer candidates. Which is valuable, but potentially could be replaced by something that costs less than $15k.

I take issue with the false promises Coding Bootcamps make. Billboards all over my city read "6 Weeks to Learn to Code - Find a Job with an Average Salary of 80k." What that brings is people from all walks of life who aren't highly motivated to code, but highly motivated to make 80k. It's an excellent way to ruin the 0-Experience developer market and saturate the industry with "I'll do whatever you want (badly) for money" developers, but I've yet to see many excellent, qualified candidates out of a bootcamp. YMMV.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#76

Post by canterburry »

xiaoma wrote: post #69
canterburry wrote: post #25

I too am a bit confused to why coding bootcamps are needed. I am sure they nicely compress lots of information into a short timeframe but even back in 1997 I was able to teach myself to code simply by sitting at Barnes and Noble reading book after book after book and then trying things out on my own. Today, this should be even easier since it's all online anyway. If it's too much work looking it up yourself, maybe yo…

I disagree. It's harder today now that everything is online. Most people in wealthier countries, especially younger people, struggle greatly to focus deeply for long periods of time and several of their most addictive distractions are available in the same web browser they use to visit docs, source control, technical chatrooms and Q&A sites. Back when you did it, it was just you, the books and your dev environment.

Ehm...again, maybe they don't want to learn how to code as badly as they think they do.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#77

Post by antisthenes »

canterburry wrote: post #76
xiaoma wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It's harder today now that everything is online. Most people in wealthier countries, especially younger people, struggle greatly to focus deeply for long periods of time and several of their most addictive distractions are available in the same web browser they use to visit docs, source control, technical chatrooms and Q&A sites. Back when you did it, it was just you, the books and your dev environment.

Ehm...again, maybe they don't want to learn how to code as badly as they think they do.

Or maybe they're adults with responsibilities that don't have the time to learn how to code effectively and are stifled by the enormous amount of choice (interpreted vs compiled? front-end vs back-end? framework vs raw code? self-learning or bootcamp?).

Most successful developers neglect to mention the plethora of free time they had to study code in grade school and university.

Once you get out and have to support yourself with a job, your free learning time shrinks to a 1/4 of what it was. Yeah, you can sacrifice some things and learn to code eventually, but it's much harder after school.

It really is that simple.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#78

Post by drvdevd »

titzer wrote: post #53

I think the existence of $15k coding bootcamps is not a good sign for our industry. It means that without a doubt there is a huge bubble forming. Why? Because in 2002 I graduated with an undergraduate degree in CS with "only" $16k in debt. I know college is a lot more expensive these days, but $15k for a mere month of education, from which is supposed to follow a $100k+/y job? Get real, market. That seems like both a…

One issue I take with the entire concept of "coding bootcamps" is the idea that "coding" is even a well-defined term. When you tell someone who's looking for a new field of work they should start coding, you should really be saying, "There's a job market here, but in reality it consists of thousands of subfields, some more well-payed than others, and some with a much steeper learning curve than others. Pick something you like within that massive space and maybe then find a bootcamp or whatever to continue to specialize, if you find it's even necessary."

Yes I have heard of people doing well out of bootcamps, but what will their ultimate contribution to the market be? If the value you bring becomes saturated, your salary will shrink in due time, and competition will increase.

The main point I'd like to drive home to my friends looking at bootcamps is that programming is a field of continuous learning. No school, bootcamp, or any other institution can give you that - you have to take it.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#79

Post by canterburry »

antisthenes wrote: post #77
canterburry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehm...again, maybe they don't want to learn how to code as badly as they think they do.

Or maybe they're adults with responsibilities that don't have the time to learn how to code effectively and are stifled by the enormous amount of choice (interpreted vs compiled? front-end vs back-end? framework vs raw code? self-learning or bootcamp?). Most successful developers neglect to mention the plethora of free time they had to study code in grade school and university. Once you get out and have to support yo…

Fair point.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#80

Post by linkregister »

John23832 wrote: post #73
linkregister wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which companies are disregarding state school graduates? Don't Amazon, Facebook, et. al. send recruiting teams to most state schools?

I got an offer from Facebook and I went to Virginia Tech, a state school. I think it depends on the quality/prestige of the CS program.

Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech are probably the highest-regarded state schools for Computer Science.

(I am excluding the University of California system because its high cost and stringent admissions make it more similar to private institutions)

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