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What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

washington.edu

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Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#21
post #3

The question of what makes Bach sound like Bach is, needless to say, not addressed. The actual thing they're reporting is: '“You need to be able to say from 3 seconds and 50 milliseconds to 78 milliseconds, this instrument is playing an A. But that’s impractical or impossible for even an expert musician to track with that degree of accuracy.” The UW research team overcame that challenge by applying a technique called…

Hi savanaly, When we talk about "what makes Bach sound like Bach," the technical concept we have in mind is the recent work in computer vision on style transfer. For example, https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.06576 We are excited to work on adapting these models to the musical domain! As for note prediction, you can see our results in our paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.09827 Our are results for simple (2-layer, not very…

I'm an (ex-)musician playing with machine learning, this is very interesting, will check it out! Kudos for curating the dataset. So your goal initially is to basically build polyphonic transcription with CNN's?

I am starting to record my own dataset for solo jazz piano - all midi though. Monophonic melodies, and matching chord voicings and voice leading from one chord to the next. With the goal of learning to generate a good sounding jazz piano arrangement to a given melody with nothing except monophonic input.

Style transfer is good at essentially texture transfer - I suspect it won't work that well for understanding music theory (or text), especially with long time series dependencies, but will be very curious to see what emerges.

I'd like to hear more generative music samples from DeepMind's WaveNet too, the piano samples they published sounded very good, but it was unclear what the model had learned or generalised - and how much was semi-randomised recall. I haven't seen the open source implementations of WaveNet produce as good results yet - probably because it's computationally very expensive to train and run, and that limits experimentation. I saw Aäron give a talk on it a couple of weeks ago which helped me understand the stacked dilated convolutions - but would still like to hear more music examples :)

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#23
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would make a list, but it'd be about 25 items long. ;) Start with "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" and "Wahrlich, dieser ist Gottes Sohn gewesen" and "Und von der sechsten Stunde an ward eine Finsternis über das ganze Land bis zu der neunten Stunde" and...see? I can't stop once I get started.

Except "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" are Greek transliterations of Hebrew/Aramaic so... what does that sound like to you in German?

That's translated inline in the original Greek, and in every subsequent translation. One does not need to understand the Aramaic, just to be familiar with the verse containing it.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#24
This news reminded me of this gem, from back in the day (I think 1996-ish):

http://www.markheadrick.com/midi/absmfaq.txt

In section 1.4 they very emphatically state that "with current technology, IT CAN'T BE DONE."

They conclude: "Think of it this way: If you don't mind spending more than the US national debt on computer equipment and waiting a few years for the job to complete, you can have a system that MIGHT accurately convert the digital waveform data of a 5 minute song into a small, compact MIDI file.

Otherwise, you can blow a couple of thousand dollars hiring a professional band of studio musicians and engineers who can probably give you what you want in about one day."

It is humorous for its emphatic-ness, but also educational for being a picture into how we've historically thought about this problem.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#25
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for correcting my hyperbole, which I suppose is due to my bias for his keyboard works which I like to play (at home -- I doubt anyone suffer through my playing). I do like the masses and passions though, so you are spurring me to listen to more choral work!

Totally check out the cantatas; many of us feel that the cantatas are the real heart of Bach's work. Bach was fundamentally a church musician.

i member.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#26
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for correcting my hyperbole, which I suppose is due to my bias for his keyboard works which I like to play (at home -- I doubt anyone suffer through my playing). I do like the masses and passions though, so you are spurring me to listen to more choral work!

Totally check out the cantatas; many of us feel that the cantatas are the real heart of Bach's work. Bach was fundamentally a church musician.

If you have an iPhone or iPad I would reommend the Bach cantatas app to learn about Bachs cantatas:

http://www.cantatasapp.com and https://appsto.re/de/HecH5.i

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#27
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

Professional Bach singer here: member of American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, Carmel Bach Festival. It's actually not true that the "vast majority" of Bach's work had no texts. Bach wrote over 200 cantatas (with around 5-10 movements and separate texts each) plus an assortment of masses and 4 extremely large choral/orchestral works: the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, t…

How many of the lost hundred cantatas do you think contained new (unknown to us) music, as opposed to music that was parodied in a surviving cantata?

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#29
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi savanaly, When we talk about "what makes Bach sound like Bach," the technical concept we have in mind is the recent work in computer vision on style transfer. For example, https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.06576 We are excited to work on adapting these models to the musical domain! As for note prediction, you can see our results in our paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.09827 Our are results for simple (2-layer, not very…

I'm an (ex-)musician playing with machine learning, this is very interesting, will check it out! Kudos for curating the dataset. So your goal initially is to basically build polyphonic transcription with CNN's? I am starting to record my own dataset for solo jazz piano - all midi though. Monophonic melodies, and matching chord voicings and voice leading from one chord to the next. With the goal of learning to generat…

Yes, we're starting with the transcription task. CNNs for local prediction are interesting, and we're also curious about capturing the temporal structure of music with something recurrent. It seems like a time series model that understands something about western music should help with music transcription just like language models help with speech transcription.

The style transfer stuff comes later and as you observe, we'll probably need some new ideas to make that work well. I haven't thought about this deeply yet, but my intuition is that maybe instrumental timbre is an audio analog of visual texture, so maybe a reasonably direct "port" of style-transfer to the audio domain would let us construct demos that, for example, rewrite a cello recording to sound like trombone.

Let us know when your dataset is complete! I love jazz.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#30
post #27
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional Bach singer here: member of American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, Carmel Bach Festival. It's actually not true that the "vast majority" of Bach's work had no texts. Bach wrote over 200 cantatas (with around 5-10 movements and separate texts each) plus an assortment of masses and 4 extremely large choral/orchestral works: the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, t…

How many of the lost hundred cantatas do you think contained new (unknown to us) music, as opposed to music that was parodied in a surviving cantata?

Most of them, probably
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