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Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

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Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#851

Post by dragonwriter »

polymotivated wrote: post #847
dragonwriter wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Objectively, HN has a huge problem with leftists and socialists downvoting conservative/libertarian comments It's funny how partisans on the right often say this, and partisans on the left often say the same thing, with the sides reversed. The fact is, HN has sizable and active contigents from all parts if the political spectrum, and partisan voting (up and down) comes from all sides.

Maybe those on the right aren't as trigger-happy with the down-votes as the leftists are. Leftists aren't so keen on free speech anyway. Just look at the SJWs and the global warming crowd.

> Maybe those on the right aren't as trigger-happy with the down-votes as the leftists are.

Or maybe they are.

> Leftists aren't so keen on free speech anyway.

And many leftists would say the same thing about rightists, with the same amount of justification.

Both the right and left have large factions with little devotion to free speech beyond what agrees with them. And both have factions that view disagreement and criticism as suppression.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#853

Post by wpietri »

dang wrote: post #48
rustyfe wrote: post #32

One question that interests/concerns me is making judgement calls about what is/is not a political story. Some links will be cut and dry, some will not. Some comments will be immediately identified as political, some will just be politics adjacent. For instance, on a story about self driving cars, will it be appropriate to talk about UBI? On a story about cryptography, will it be acceptable to talk about how it appli…

Right, it's not possible to define "politics" precisely, and it would be a mistake to try. But there's nothing new in that; the HN guidelines have always mentioned politics without defining the term, and we get by. We can clarify, though. The main concern here is pure politics: the conflicts around party, ideology, nation, race, gender, class, and religion that get people hot and turn into flamewars on the internet.…

> pure politics: the conflicts around party, ideology, nation, race, gender, class, and religion

I'm very sad to see this, dang. Complaining about identity politics is a form of identity politics. Because we white people are the default, banning discussion of non-whiteness reinforces whiteness. Banning discussion of gender similarly favors men, especially in tech.

You and I might experience this experiment as a detox. But it is increasing toxicity for those whose identities and concerns you are trying to erase.

In normal times, I might shrug. But these are not normal times. Tech companies are having to consider whether they'll be making lists of Muslims and turning them over to the authorities. We are having to ask ourselves, "Do we really need to store all this user data if we might have to give it up in secret?" Refusing to discuss politics when these issues are on the table is actively supporting a side.

I object in the strongest terms and will not participate. I won't be back for a week. If it keeps up, I'll be closing my account.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#854

Post by jdp23 »

dang wrote: post #725
jdp23 wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps grounding your moderation policies around concepts you know are undefined and inseparable isn't the best basis for moderating the site. As for how people see your actions: labeling it as "projecting" might make you feel better, but probably gets in the way of you understanding what they're saying. In today's environment, you can't simultaneously make the site an welcoming place for people who are anti-Muslim,…

It's the best basis for moderating the site because the alternative is impossible. You're right, though, that I shouldn't use the word 'project' like that.

A classic HN moment: 'dang tells me I'm right, and I'm downvoted to -3 :)

> the alternative is impossible

Interesting phrasing.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#855

Post by balloons »

It just goes to show how white and privileged Silicon Valley as a whole is. Be glad that you only have to think about politics when it's time to elect your next president, that it won't affect whether you have a place to sleep or money in your pocket.

This is the same attitude YC showed the world when it kept Thiel on board. If Silicon Valley as a whole really cared about diversity (and it's becoming clear in many cases that it's only for PR), then you should find ways to facilitate constructive discourse (as HN has done with many other topics) and not ignore politics outright.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#856

Post by bmelton »

chillwaves wrote: post #841
bmelton wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Talk is cheap and political discussion is especially cheap. How do you propose to lead constructive discussions around these matters I don't know about 'actionable items', but political conversation isn't any different than other conversations -- civility, the assumption of good faith, and an open mind are more common factors as to whether a discussion is good or bad versus topic. The problem with political discuss…

Don't you think your post rings of false equivalency? How do you discuss in "good faith" ideas like white nationalism?

How do you discuss in "good faith" ideas like white nationalism?

You discuss it the same way you discuss any other idea in good faith:

by evaluating the content on its message, not on the presuppositions you might have for its messenger;

by evaluating each topic in isolation on its own, and trying to determine whether or not any individual point has merit or not, how much merit it may have, and where it does not have merit, explaining why you consider it meritless;

by being open-minded enough to not dismiss individual points because you disagree with the central thesis;

by putting forth your best arguments, and letting the stronger argument win the day, unblemished by vitriol;

by being civil and courteous to your fellow man because as humans, they're deserving of at least a civil, open minded discussion.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#857

Post by jdietrich »

minimuffins wrote: post #264

The idea that we can carve out a space that exists outside of politics and ideology is delusional. Ideology is present everywhere. It's built in to the ways we relate to each other, to our employers, to the public and private institutions and technologies we interact with all the time, and especially the way we work and conceive of work. Ideology is often tacit, baked into our assumptions even in "non-political" area…

If you stood up in the middle of a geology lecture and tried to start an argument about Roe v. Wade, you'd rightfully be thrown out of the room. We're all affected by politics, but that doesn't mean that political discussion is necessary, useful or welcome in every context.

This is Hacker News. It's not the front page of Reddit, it's a niche site with a clear remit. I'm absolutely fine with any general political discussion being permanently flagged as off topic. If people want to discuss something like internet censorship or science funding, I think this may be an appropriate venue. Discussions about the technology of politics like econometrics, polling error or voting machine design may also be relevant. Beyond that, the internet has no shortage of places to discuss politics; many of them have a vastly higher calibre of political discourse than HN.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#858

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

jdietrich wrote: post #857
minimuffins wrote: post #264

The idea that we can carve out a space that exists outside of politics and ideology is delusional. Ideology is present everywhere. It's built in to the ways we relate to each other, to our employers, to the public and private institutions and technologies we interact with all the time, and especially the way we work and conceive of work. Ideology is often tacit, baked into our assumptions even in "non-political" area…

If you stood up in the middle of a geology lecture and tried to start an argument about Roe v. Wade, you'd rightfully be thrown out of the room. We're all affected by politics, but that doesn't mean that political discussion is necessary, useful or welcome in every context. This is Hacker News. It's not the front page of Reddit, it's a niche site with a clear remit. I'm absolutely fine with any general political disc…

> many [other places on the internet] have a vastly higher calibre of political discourse than HN.

Can you (or anyone) point us to these? Not being sarcastic, but also somewhat skeptical - I've never encountered another public forum of HN's overall quality.

I think the metaphor about the geology lecture is misleading - HN isn't a lecture hall, it's an exhibition hall, and if the only criteria for something being an exhibit is a capacity to intellectually stimulate, then I don't see why political discussion should be precluded.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#859

Post by trentmb »

flashman wrote: post #561
idlewords wrote: post #380

This is a terrible decision. The tech industry has built powerful tools of social control, and runs vast databases of private data on pretty much everyone in the country. We have a golden period of forty-some days before a new administration comes to power that has shown every intent of using that information to deport people and create a national Muslim registry. We need to be talking about the political implication…

Not to mention that "can we please stop with all the politics" is not political neutrality , it's a position that supports the status quo. Silence assists certain forms of repression.

> Silence assists certain forms of repression.

So does sleep. Stop sleeping.

EDIT: Hours not spent fighting fascism are hours spent supporting it, right?

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#860

Post by politician »

fdgdasfadsf wrote: post #654
anonbanker wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a mod, but I wouldn't flag your comment. Mentioning faith-based alternatives for human interaction may not be 100% on-topic, but it isn't political or divisive. Now, if you had recommended one faith/sect over others for a superior experience of human interaction, then maybe you'd have a problem.

OTH I find the concept of religion to be very political... The boundaries of political discourse are like art or porn. You know it when you see it but one person's+ definition is different to another. + NB I used the word "person" in this sentence rather than "man" - some would therefore say that my comment has a political slant because it is attempting to use gender neutral words - I would say it isn't because I alw…

Well played.
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