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Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

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Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#721

Post by KirinDave »

Given the profound affect tech has had on the last US election cycle, it is difficult not to read this ban as the execution of a political agenda.

The idea that the two can be extricated from one another is absurd on its face.

But what's also notable is the boldness of saying it out loud. It has always been the policy of HN to flag out the majority of "politics" before it resides in the new queue for more than an hour or two.

This "experiment" will surely quash conflict, but by banning anyone who has any reason to express contention. The burden of social censure has always been placed firmly on the head of the aggrieved on HN, but it's been an unofficial policy until now. People like me are rate limited for being "too contentious" on political subjects already. Now we're outright forbidden from talking about it.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#722

Post by jonahrd »

Some of the most politically important events and eras were defined and made possible by the technology and engineering that came out of these periods. In the past, engineering has been taught as a separate entity, focusing on monetary and technological risks/rewards. This leads to impressive engineering projects that sometimes devastate communities, wildlife, marginalized groups, etc.

But the truth is that engineering is intrinsically linked to the impacts it has on the environment, its social impacts, its political impacts, and everything else that it affects in this complex web that is reality. When engineering is taught in schools now, these impacts are a major focus. In civil engineering this means that projects are planned that at least take into account the people and communities they are displacing. In industrial engineering, it means sourcing materials from the right places, focusing on environmental impact, etc.

It's absolutely no different in software engineering, or high tech in general. By enforcing an 'apolitical' atmosphere in a tech discussion, you're consciously shifting the intelligence and nuance of the discussion back to a period before we started to consider the impact that technology has on society. This is a dangerous shift, and dumbs down the level of discussion that's achievable by muting voices that connect the discussion with its impacts in other areas. In effect, this actively enforces the status quo, and doesn't allow our discussion here to progress the industry as a whole.

I come to HN because it's a great resource to find interesting tech articles. It's also a great way to stay informed with the latest tech related news. But equally, I find discussion so engaging here because it seems to be so deeply ingrained the heart of the tech community, and because of that, can affect the way the tech world operates as a whole (even just slightly). Stripping down the discussion to a frankly old-fashioned apolitical "tech doesn't affect anything except tech" would be a sad thing for me to witness happen to HN.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#723

Post by grzm »

unclesaamm wrote: post #704
grzm wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about the choice of words "open-source" here. What would having the source available change with respect to this "Tell HN"? Something along the lines of no mods? No voting/flagging? Nothing off-topic?

Community operated and moderated. It's amazing how the entire tech community has come together on a message board run by venture capital. It's not a neutral forum. At the very least, a GNU-friendlier alternative would be appreciated.

Thanks for the clarification. I encourage you to use the phrase "community operated and moderated" in that case. Open source is overloaded as it is. Conflating community operated with licensing is problematic.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#724

Post by russelluresti »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #309
russelluresti wrote: post #117

> Those things are lost when political emotions seize control > but it's insufficient to stop people from flaming each other when political conflicts activate the primitive brain. Wait, is the entire premise behind this the idea that political differences can't be discussed in a respectful manner? History would disagree with you on this statement. People are capable of having political discussion without having a fla…

I think " at the moment , politics is considerably less likely to be discussed in a respectful manner" is a very defensible point, though...

Perhaps, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean it should be completely disengaged. It's when things are difficult that issues need to be discussed the most. Instead, we should continue to engage and be more adamant about enforcing our own rules.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#725

Post by dang »

jdp23 wrote: post #678
dang wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's delusional. The concepts can't be defined to begin with, nor can they be separated in any consistent way. And still we have to moderate this site. > the world is upside down, but think happy thoughts, folks! Here's a TED talk! It's sort of a peeve of mine that people project this onto us because I can't say how I really feel about it without breaking our own rules.

Perhaps grounding your moderation policies around concepts you know are undefined and inseparable isn't the best basis for moderating the site. As for how people see your actions: labeling it as "projecting" might make you feel better, but probably gets in the way of you understanding what they're saying. In today's environment, you can't simultaneously make the site an welcoming place for people who are anti-Muslim,…

It's the best basis for moderating the site because the alternative is impossible.

You're right, though, that I shouldn't use the word 'project' like that.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#726

Post by KingOfMyRoom »

Why not look at Wikipedia and see how they are tackling controversial topics? Here it sounds like a disappointing ostrich experiment. Let's bury our head in sand, let the storm pass away and see what happens.

I think it's a good think that people are indignant on both side. Let's organise ourself. We have the tools, the concepts, the technology. I am sure it's possible to find some common ground and have some data-driven debates/discussions and form some more balance opinions/belief.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#727

Post by imron »

Jemaclus wrote: post #514
tarikjn wrote: post #62

I find this experiment a bit strange/disturbing, avoiding political subjects is a way of putting the head in the sand. HN is a community of hackers and entrepreneurs and politics affects these subjects one way or another wether we want to avoid it or not, and are an important component of entrepreneurial and technical subjects. It might be fine if HN was a scientific community, but it is not the case, and even then p…

Agree. I would argue that the "don't discuss politics or religion" with family and friends is partly what got us into this mess in the first place. The United States has become a nation where you can't have reasonable political discourse, because we've been taught not to talk about it. We put our heads in the sand and repeat our same beliefs over and over without any external challenge or validation. When we try to h…

> I would argue that the "don't discuss politics or religion" with family and friends is partly what got us into this mess in the first place

I don't think this is the problem.

The problem is the echo chambers people surround themselves with (and tech companies explicitly try to cultivate) and a slowly dying news media desperate for views, and whipping up outrage in order to get them.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#728

Post by igravious »

hackuser wrote: post #641

> Why don't we have some politics but discuss it in thoughtful ways? Well, that's exactly what the HN guidelines call for, but it's insufficient ... Agreed. I've been thinking about how communities can handle this problem for awhile. A solution to it would be revolutionary, in a very good way for the entire Internet, and what better place to experiment with and develop a solution than HN. Here's my over-ambitious sho…

Interesting idea.

One hitch perhaps: topics that start off non-political but veer into politics … happens often enough.

A more democratic way would be for the community to either enable the hot-buttoning or be able to disable it with enough flagging.

When you think about it you're suggesting something akin to Wikipedia's sensitive page rules where extremely divisive pages are locked down and subject to higher scrutiny.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#729

Post by olalonde »

idlewords wrote: post #380

This is a terrible decision. The tech industry has built powerful tools of social control, and runs vast databases of private data on pretty much everyone in the country. We have a golden period of forty-some days before a new administration comes to power that has shown every intent of using that information to deport people and create a national Muslim registry. We need to be talking about the political implication…

And this type of comment is precisely why I support a ban on political discussion on HN. You're just preaching to the choir. I've read this same comment in one form or another for hundreds, if not thousands of times on HN. If anything, a dissenting opinion (e.g. one in favor of Trump or the NSA) could add something new to the conversation but it would get down voted to hell and get ugly pretty fast.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#730

Post by dragonwriter »

igravious wrote: post #728
hackuser wrote: post #641

> Why don't we have some politics but discuss it in thoughtful ways? Well, that's exactly what the HN guidelines call for, but it's insufficient ... Agreed. I've been thinking about how communities can handle this problem for awhile. A solution to it would be revolutionary, in a very good way for the entire Internet, and what better place to experiment with and develop a solution than HN. Here's my over-ambitious sho…

Interesting idea. One hitch perhaps: topics that start off non-political but veer into politics … happens often enough. A more democratic way would be for the community to either enable the hot-buttoning or be able to disable it with enough flagging. When you think about it you're suggesting something akin to Wikipedia's sensitive page rules where extremely divisive pages are locked down and subject to higher scrutin…

Isn't there already a flamewar detector that penalizes threads? Couldn't it also, probably earlier, trigger the "hot-button" rules and notification?
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