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What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

washington.edu

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Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#11

Post by gumby »

ktRolster wrote: post #6

Albert Schweitzer pointed out (in https://www.amazon.com/dp/0486216314 ) that in many cases it's hard to understand Bach's music without understanding the lyrics. The mood of the music will change from cheerful to somber (or whatever) seemingly randomly, but if you understand the lyrics, it's not random.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos).

However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I wept...and I don't even know much about christianity.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#12

Post by ktRolster »

gumby wrote: post #11
ktRolster wrote: post #6

Albert Schweitzer pointed out (in https://www.amazon.com/dp/0486216314 ) that in many cases it's hard to understand Bach's music without understanding the lyrics. The mood of the music will change from cheerful to somber (or whatever) seemingly randomly, but if you understand the lyrics, it's not random.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I wept

Which parts made you weep?

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#13

Post by Bud »

gumby wrote: post #11
ktRolster wrote: post #6

Albert Schweitzer pointed out (in https://www.amazon.com/dp/0486216314 ) that in many cases it's hard to understand Bach's music without understanding the lyrics. The mood of the music will change from cheerful to somber (or whatever) seemingly randomly, but if you understand the lyrics, it's not random.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

Professional Bach singer here: member of American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, Carmel Bach Festival.

It's actually not true that the "vast majority" of Bach's work had no texts. Bach wrote over 200 cantatas (with around 5-10 movements and separate texts each) plus an assortment of masses and 4 extremely large choral/orchestral works: the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, the Christmas Oratorio, and the B Minor Mass.

Looking at the catalog of all of Bach's works, which I have here, BWV (Bach Werke-Verzeichnis) numbers 1 thru 1071, you get all the way to BWV 525 before you even get out of the vocal works. Numbers 1 thru 524 are all cantatas, masses, oratorios, lieder, the many chorales of course, secular and comic cantatas, etc. And of course many/most of these are far larger than the individual organ works.

(Bach actually wrote a lot more cantatas than this; but only around 224 of them survived. Another hundred or so were lost.)

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#14

Post by devindotcom »

Bud wrote: post #13
gumby wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

Professional Bach singer here: member of American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, Carmel Bach Festival. It's actually not true that the "vast majority" of Bach's work had no texts. Bach wrote over 200 cantatas (with around 5-10 movements and separate texts each) plus an assortment of masses and 4 extremely large choral/orchestral works: the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, t…

This is my understanding too, his choral works are many. They were part of the Bach family factory though, IIRC, so might not be the best data points for learning what makes Bach Bach note by note.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#15

Post by Bud »

Bud wrote: post #13
gumby wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

Professional Bach singer here: member of American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, Carmel Bach Festival. It's actually not true that the "vast majority" of Bach's work had no texts. Bach wrote over 200 cantatas (with around 5-10 movements and separate texts each) plus an assortment of masses and 4 extremely large choral/orchestral works: the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, t…

Not so; the cantatas are authentic J.S. stuff.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#16

Post by Bud »

ktRolster wrote: post #12
gumby wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I wept Which parts made you weep?

I would make a list, but it'd be about 25 items long. ;)

Start with "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" and "Wahrlich, dieser ist Gottes Sohn gewesen" and "Und von der sechsten Stunde an ward eine Finsternis über das ganze Land bis zu der neunten Stunde" and...see? I can't stop once I get started.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#17

Post by gumby »

Bud wrote: post #13
gumby wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

Professional Bach singer here: member of American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, Carmel Bach Festival. It's actually not true that the "vast majority" of Bach's work had no texts. Bach wrote over 200 cantatas (with around 5-10 movements and separate texts each) plus an assortment of masses and 4 extremely large choral/orchestral works: the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, t…

Thanks for correcting my hyperbole, which I suppose is due to my bias for his keyboard works which I like to play (at home -- I doubt anyone suffer through my playing). I do like the masses and passions though, so you are spurring me to listen to more choral work!

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#18

Post by irrational »

Bud wrote: post #16
ktRolster wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I wept Which parts made you weep?

I would make a list, but it'd be about 25 items long. ;) Start with "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" and "Wahrlich, dieser ist Gottes Sohn gewesen" and "Und von der sechsten Stunde an ward eine Finsternis über das ganze Land bis zu der neunten Stunde" and...see? I can't stop once I get started.

Except "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" are Greek transliterations of Hebrew/Aramaic so... what does that sound like to you in German?

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#19

Post by gumby »

ktRolster wrote: post #12
gumby wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schweitzer may have been a thoughtful guy but I think this case is a reach; after all the vast majority of Bach's work had no libretto at all (including for example all the organ fugues, and the Goldberg variations and Brandenburg concertos). However a counterexample from my own life: I only learned German starting in my late 20s and when, 10 years later I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I…

I heard the Matthäus-Passion and could understand the lyrics I wept Which parts made you weep?

So I didn't really know the Jesus story, just that it was when one of their gods was killed. But the text makes it a human event in which his friends suffer.

It even begins with him being a bit of a prig as his acolytes express their unhappiness. But then he himself expresses pathos (Meine Seele ist betr ̧bt bis an den Tod, bleibet hie und wachet mit mir.) The story becomes unfair. I really felt the unfairness of his trial.

It's a much more sympathetic story than, say, Plato's recitation of the death of Socrates, who comes off as a jerk.

Re: What makes Bach sound like Bach? New dataset teaches algorithms classical music

#20

Post by Bud »

gumby wrote: post #17
Bud wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional Bach singer here: member of American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, Carmel Bach Festival. It's actually not true that the "vast majority" of Bach's work had no texts. Bach wrote over 200 cantatas (with around 5-10 movements and separate texts each) plus an assortment of masses and 4 extremely large choral/orchestral works: the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, t…

Thanks for correcting my hyperbole, which I suppose is due to my bias for his keyboard works which I like to play (at home -- I doubt anyone suffer through my playing). I do like the masses and passions though, so you are spurring me to listen to more choral work!

Totally check out the cantatas; many of us feel that the cantatas are the real heart of Bach's work. Bach was fundamentally a church musician.
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