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What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

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Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#121
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simplify your message. What is the core, key idea of what you want to do? If you can't explain it in a sentence, keep trying.

I want to "increase the number of people who are able to write, modify, combine and share software by building a tool that makes writing software easy and fun, and accessible to everyone." I even have a slogan. I call it "Enabling Software Literacy" That said, I'm highly skeptical towards the "good ideas can be stated in a sentence" heuristic.

If you want anybody to listen, you're going to have to keep repeating it.

It's a good start. I can support software literacy. Now you need to state your plan to get there just as concisely. Probably not as easy.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#122
post #109
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you really want programming to continue to be difficult.

On the contrary, I want programming to be easier where possible, but the goals of this manifesto (and all the similar ones before it) are trying to fix the wrong thing. Better and more powerful abstractions are always good, I'll always welcome a new tool that makes my job easier. However the goal of this project is to make a tool that's explicitly designed to make code that's easier to read for the average person, no…

> Do we really want to start trying to write applications in Excel? Can you imagine the horrible spaghetti code that would result in? Imagine how much code you're going to have to write to express even mildly complicated concepts? Imagine trying to maintain one of these beasts.

Have you not worked in business much? Or software development (or b2b software development, or vertical integration software development, or...)?

Everything you mention in these few sentences has already come to pass, almost as soon as Excel was released. You would not believe the ungodly horrors we software developers have seen since then...then been forced to maintain, or re-write, or attempt to document.

/sob

I once found an ANN implemented as a set of Excel worksheets - thankfully, this wasn't a real-world system, but rather a tutorial designed to help teach ANNs to those with only Excel knowledge...but I know that someone - some manager, likely - somewhere out there - has chosen to add this beast into his or her own Excel worksheet system, and that it lurks, waiting like Cthulhu for a hapless sacrificial victim.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#123
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell from the manifesto what this supposed to do, but the goal of making programming more accessible seems worthwhile. An Internet-enabled open source Excel would be, well, at least better than Excel, which runs more of the world than we'd probably like to admit. Of course, the chances of that happening are effectively zero. It looks more like Smalltalk, which actually isn't known for being easy to read. So I…

> It looks more like Smalltalk, which actually isn't known for being easy to read. That's sort of one of my points though. They're going to come up with basically one of two things: A) Something that's conceptually simple (so the average person can understand it without needing to take a bunch of programming classes) but which leads to most programs being very hard to read because they have to implement all the compl…

There is a ton of low-hanging fruit in just making the basic logistical details of programming more accessible. (Try to imagine explaining npm to the average Excel user.) Now this project may go after that and produce an incremental improvement that finds a niche in education or wherever, or it may pursue a re-invent computer science, boil the oceans strategy and end up with a smoldering heap of nothing after much effort.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#124
post #104
post #63

I'm also working on solving this problem, but my solution is to teach vanilla HTML, CSS and JavaScript by making an IDE with WYSIWYG, real time analysis and other goodies.

That's great. What's your target group?

Trying to get people who make Word documents to make web documents instead, using HTML. I think it's time to bring HTML and the web to the mainstream. Companies are currently paying hundreds thousands of dollars to copy/paste from Word to a CMS that store the document in a database blob, when they could make HTML documents themselves for peanuts. Once you have the documents in HTML format instead of a closed binary format, it's possible to use all the nice tools we developers use, like git.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#125
Whenever the physical world intrudes on the illusory "virtual world of computers", the man behind the curtain is observed in its less than superlative aspects and we're less prone to attribute OZ powers to "software".

Software /is/ magical in many aspects. But its own inherent magic has never been anything other than sleight of hand sort of magic. Even then, software magic borrows from the glory of /insanely/ complex physical machines, and various wondrous features of Nature itself.

One case in point was when Moore's Law and economy collided and the practice had to ramp up on concurrency and deal with SMP. A bit later (and still on going) we're ramping up on distribution and dealing with CAP. In the former case, the illusory 'indivisible' platform was seen to have a sort of geography. In the latter case, the illusory notions of linear 'time' and smooth 'space' was smashed.

OP's remedy for a software-driven world's ailments is software literacy. But the physical head poking through the curtain should make it clear a large subset of these ailments have to do with physical things, such as computing devices, infrastructure, access to energy, and even softer concerns such as legal and political cover for making, providing, and operating software.

Imagine if every single person was a world class chemist and biologist. Would we be able to do away with drug companies? You have that amazing molecule all figured out -- do you have the physical capability for actually realizing it?

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#126

>To fix this, we need to increase the currently tiny number of people who are able to write, modify, combine and share software. We need a tool that makes writing software easy and fun, and accessible to everyone. A tool that enables software literacy. Global access to niche knowledge doesn't seem like an effective use of the world's time to me. Let's look at this same idea, but replace "develop software" with "perfo…

Many many people write scripts in Excel. It is easy and accessible to the majority of people who have computers today. Some accountants and quants would even call it fun.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#127
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but what makes brain surgery a good analogy? Why not replace "writing software" with "hopping on one foot" instead? Most of us own computers that can run software, but we don't own the equipment required to do brain surgery. More people have problems that can be solved by software than can be solved by brain surgery. I think software is more like basic arithmetic: a bit of training (plus the pen and paper you alr…

A lot of people use software, but does that really mean they need to know how to create their own? sbov's car analogy suggestion is apt: a lot of people drive cars, but should they be expected to be able to maintain their own? A kinda related side observation: I found my brief stint working with Max/MSP (a visual language typically used by musicians) to be illuminating. This is a tool for non programmers (musicians i…

I haven't used it personally but I have heard the same issues come up with LabView visual programming for laboratory automation and instrument control.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#128

>To fix this, we need to increase the currently tiny number of people who are able to write, modify, combine and share software. We need a tool that makes writing software easy and fun, and accessible to everyone. A tool that enables software literacy. Global access to niche knowledge doesn't seem like an effective use of the world's time to me. Let's look at this same idea, but replace "develop software" with "perfo…

I disagree with your analogy. In my opinion, programming is more analogous to composition. Most courses of study require at least one composition course, because no matter what discipline you're studying, it's important that you be able to organize your thoughts and express them clearly as well as understand the formal expressions of others. I personally experience a huge overlap between ordering my thoughts for writ…

We have pretty good static analysis tools now which warn the user of common mistakes at the code construction level. But at the architecture and design levels I don't think there is much that tools can do short of AGI.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#130
post #94
post #4

> Just as knowing why apples fall down and aeroplanes fly up, the citizens of the 21st century need to know that computers are not magical boxes but composed of dynamic models. In all honesty, I don't know why apples fall down and aeroplanes fly up. I just know that they do. No doubt that improving software literacy is a worthwhile goal, but I think the author hasn't made a strong case for it in the opening paragraph…

That's unfortunate since I put a lot of work in these paragraphs. I'd love to know what you think would make a better case for improving software literacy.

> Software is fundamentally broken. It's limited, never quite works the way we want it to, but it can't be changed, can't be combined and can't be trusted.

In general, this level of hyperbole puts me off. Besides anything else, this sentence is outright false, since much software can be changed, combined, and trusted. I know it's a manifesto, but still, this kind of rhetoric is unlikely to persuade people who don't already agree with you.

The issues you are discussing in this manifesto are not new, and many people have attempted to create tools to tackle those things before. Perhaps try to clarify why you think those tools fall short, in order to persuade people that zells is useful.

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