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Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

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Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#21

Post by zafka »

gaius wrote: post #13
TheGirondin wrote: post #10

Girls didn't want to pursue science because it has had a severe social stigma attached to it. This created a self-fulfilling prophesy that ensured only social outcasts with no social standing to lose would consider being interested in it. Boys have much greater range of higher ceilings and lower floors than girls did in the past (and still today, just less so), so the people at the bottom are overwhelmingly male. The…

The elephant in the corner of the room is: there is no shortage of scientists. The great universities of the West churn out far, far more PhDs than there are post-doc positions for, let alone tenure-track. This has been true for decades at least. I probably know a few dozen PhD holders personally, and I can count on one hand the number actually working in academia... Maybe what's really happening is that boys are imp…

Strictly from the point of the people who have acquired a STEM degree ( and perhaps have not found a job, or feel they are under-compensated), but only a small percentage of those who spend their career in research will have the skill needed to discover awesome stuff. And the more who go into research the better chance society as a whole has.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#22

Post by dekhn »

I read the case of the child mentioned in the article and afaict, he didn't do anything even remotely interesting. The school response to him bringing the "clock" in was an overreaction, but the boy also didn't do anything interesting, and it came at the expense of other kids who are actually making novel things.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#23

Post by dekhn »

Kroniker wrote: post #19
tgb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this gets discussed to death, I think it's worth pointing out that it's relevance to the article is not what he did but the public reaction that young science/engineering/math interests ought to be encouraged in anyone with the interest. Whether his clock was worthy of that attention is independent of that, and it's kinda a shame the article starts with a highly distracting controversial example.

I seem to remember something about his sister claiming the entire thing was a PR stunt- that they purposefully make headlines look like "brown child brings in sketchy electronic device, racists call him terrorist" to get on the news. Anyone know what became of them? Last I heard they moved to Saudi Arabia.

Yes, they are currently suing a large number of people in the US. I cannot say whether the who thing was a PR stunt or not but the limited stuff I read in the press seemed to suggest he was pushing the issue harder than justified.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#24

Post by leereeves »

blacksmythe wrote: post #15
gaius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the corner of the room is: there is no shortage of scientists. The great universities of the West churn out far, far more PhDs than there are post-doc positions for, let alone tenure-track. This has been true for decades at least. I probably know a few dozen PhD holders personally, and I can count on one hand the number actually working in academia... Maybe what's really happening is that boys are imp…

>> The great universities of the West churn out far, far more PhDs than there are post-doc positions for, let alone tenure-track. In steady state, each professor, on average, can only produce one student who goes on to be a professor.

And how many more to work in industry or government?

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#25

Post by Kroniker »

jonahrd wrote: post #6
facepalm wrote: post #2

People of color didn't become scientists because somebody made a chemistry kit in 1937 featuring an Egyptian slave. Girls didn't become scientists because some companies science competition described them as caring and nurturing during WWII. I've also heard different versions of the clock story. Not saying everybody has an equal start - for sure not everybody is or was encouraged to become a scientist to the same deg…

This is a painfully restrictive way to view the world. What's the harm in looking at this problem as a complex system that we can work on until we reach a solution? There are without a doubt societal pressure on women and people of color not to pursue careers in STEM. All you have to do is open your eyes a little bit and it's obvious.

As the stereotypical white-cis-male-scientist, this sort of statement has always bugged me. I was pushed from science at every turn- multiple teachers said I would be no good, wasn't allowed to take advanced courses in HS, was seen as a wannabe by friends and peers, but at every step I also saw a concerted effort to get women and minorities into my field of choice (physics). Support groups, gender or race only clubs (never white or male), even banners celebrating women in science. In social settings, women & girls were always praised highly when they decided to pursue maths- whereas guys got the "what are you, a show off?" treatment.

What are these societal pressures that exist "without a doubt"? Every time I've tried to dig into the subject, I can only find ephemera and anecdotal testimony. Pressures echo from generations gone by, I know, but to what extent? And I know I haven't lived the life of someone systematically oppressed, but at least in the area I group up in, it seemed the exact opposite was true- systematic uplifting.

I'm not trying to say that they don't face any hardships, though I may not be privy to them, but rather that this whole problem could be rephrased without the women/minority angle. "People are discouraged from going in to science." is a better way to look at it, imo.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#26

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

Kroniker wrote: post #19
tgb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this gets discussed to death, I think it's worth pointing out that it's relevance to the article is not what he did but the public reaction that young science/engineering/math interests ought to be encouraged in anyone with the interest. Whether his clock was worthy of that attention is independent of that, and it's kinda a shame the article starts with a highly distracting controversial example.

I seem to remember something about his sister claiming the entire thing was a PR stunt- that they purposefully make headlines look like "brown child brings in sketchy electronic device, racists call him terrorist" to get on the news. Anyone know what became of them? Last I heard they moved to Saudi Arabia.

> I seem to remember something about his sister claiming the entire thing was a PR stunt

Do you have a link?

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#27

Post by throwit542 »

I was bullied as a kid for being a science nerd and now I am lectured for the "privilege" of having had those experiences by the same crowd of people who perpetrated them. I get it, now I have the "privilege" of being bullied as an adult for being a "white" "male." That's life, I guess.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#28

Post by danielam »

gaius wrote: post #13
TheGirondin wrote: post #10

Girls didn't want to pursue science because it has had a severe social stigma attached to it. This created a self-fulfilling prophesy that ensured only social outcasts with no social standing to lose would consider being interested in it. Boys have much greater range of higher ceilings and lower floors than girls did in the past (and still today, just less so), so the people at the bottom are overwhelmingly male. The…

The elephant in the corner of the room is: there is no shortage of scientists. The great universities of the West churn out far, far more PhDs than there are post-doc positions for, let alone tenure-track. This has been true for decades at least. I probably know a few dozen PhD holders personally, and I can count on one hand the number actually working in academia... Maybe what's really happening is that boys are imp…

It would be interesting to know how IQ distribution relates to the distribution of males and females among those with PhDs and other advanced degrees, perhaps across various fields. Male IQs tend to aggregate at the lower and higher ends of the scale while female IQs tend to aggregate around the average. If IQ is a deciding factor in who lands a job in academia, I would expect the male to female ratio to be exaggerated in favor of males the more selective things get, at least in an idealized case. In practice, other factors may dampen that effect or exaggerate that effect further (e.g., females outperform males in school, fewer women may pursue academic jobs than men, etc).

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#29

Post by pasquinelli »

throwit542 wrote: post #27

I was bullied as a kid for being a science nerd and now I am lectured for the "privilege" of having had those experiences by the same crowd of people who perpetrated them. I get it, now I have the "privilege" of being bullied as an adult for being a "white" "male." That's life, I guess.

So, the piece in question talks about the history of racism and sexism in popular science, then goes into a brief discussion of what sort of personality traits scientists have, both as children and adults, and the subjective experience of doing science.

The author of this piece is bullying you for being white and male? And they're the same sort of person that bullied you as a kid for your interest in science?

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#30

Post by mattferderer »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #20
TheGirondin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be completely ignoring the context and the media response that followed. Even President Obama cared enough about it invite him to White House.

The context is about whether race influenced police to deny his rights. How does the complexity of his wiring project matter at all?

I believe the people above are arguing that his intent was to create a prank more so than to create a clock by moving a clock from its original case to a suitcase which is how bombs look often on TV. Along with that argument, people would often argue that Steve Wozniak spent a night in jail for building a fake bomb around the same age. They would also often argue that Wozniak is a white male & therefore would argue against race having anything to do with this; especially in the current tense climate in regards to bombs compared to the climate when Wozniak was in school.
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