What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it • Hacker News Board

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#41

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:49 PM UTC

sbov wrote: post #30

coderjames wrote: post #24

>To fix this, we need to increase the currently tiny number of people who are able to write, modify, combine and share software. We need a tool that makes writing software easy and fun, and accessible to everyone. A tool that enables software literacy. Global access to niche knowledge doesn't seem like an effective use of the world's time to me. Let's look at this same idea, but replace "develop software" with "perfo…

The difference is most people won't need brain surgery in their lifetime. A more relevant comparison would be car maintenance.

[deleted]

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#42

Post by kabdib » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

ninju wrote: post #22

euske wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to think that these xkcd URLs are becoming like bible verses for geeks. I find myself memorizing those numbers. (e.g. "Ugh, he's getting like xkcd/386 again.")

386 is funny one!

But with 698, it all hinges on the delivery. Get the timing wrong and watch the rotten vegetables fly.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#43

Post by dgreensp » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

I'm going to buck the trend of cynicism and say this is beautiful and matches my own ideas closely, though I have not read the paper yet.

How many of us seasoned programmers came to an understanding with computers by playing in a "toy world" of comprehensible, somewhat visible, documented, predictable abstractions, such as Logo, HyperCard, Excel, BASIC, or even assembly code, and now perform bizarre ceremonial rites on a daily basis to get a teetering stack to perform our bidding as part of "real" programming? There's a vicious interplay between how "bad" and complex software is and how arcane and unapproachable it is, even to experts, driving away all but the most determined to crack the code, who then work together to try to build quality components and applications against great odds.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#44

Post by dustingetz » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

coderjames wrote: post #24

>To fix this, we need to increase the currently tiny number of people who are able to write, modify, combine and share software. We need a tool that makes writing software easy and fun, and accessible to everyone. A tool that enables software literacy. Global access to niche knowledge doesn't seem like an effective use of the world's time to me. Let's look at this same idea, but replace "develop software" with "perfo…

yeah but 40 years ago people said this about spreadsheets, and 25 years ago about web browsers, and 50 years ago about computers

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#45

Post by IshKebab » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #37

sbov wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is most people won't need brain surgery in their lifetime. A more relevant comparison would be car maintenance.

Well, most people don't know how to fix their car, so the result seems to be the same to me.

He meant that people usually have cars that they need to run well. They just pay someone else to take care of it.

Similarly people usually have computers that they want to run programs on. They don't write them themselves though - they pay someone else to take care of it.

People don't commonly need brain surgery. It wouldn't really be a useful skill unless it is your full-time job.

Anyway I don't think you need an analogy to reason about this.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#46

Post by skywhopper » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:56 PM UTC

Anyone who says this:

    in the virtual world of computers,
    everything can be replicated, from complex
    physical phenomena to abstract ideas,
    and even your own mind.

Does not understand computers well enough to be lecturing the world about the need for software "literacy". The assertion that computers can represent any of those things is a complete falsehood.

Computers are great with complex mathematical models of physical phenomena, and in some limited cases this is extremely useful. But smart engineers know the limits of their tools, and computer models are not an exception.

But to assert that abstract ideas or the human mind can be replicated in a computer only shows that the author either has no idea of the actual state of the art, and/or has no idea of what he means when he says this is possible.

One of the first things you learn in Computer Science is that not all problems can be solved with a computer. It's amazing that people so enamored with math that they want to believe they can model every phenomenon in the universe with a computer apparently disbelieve the math that proves computers can't correctly model everything.

Weird. Please don't try to teach the world that computers can do everything. They can't. And that should be lesson one in any plan to increase software literacy. Starting, apparently, with its advocates.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#47

Post by bluetomcat » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:57 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #38

coderjames wrote: post #24

>To fix this, we need to increase the currently tiny number of people who are able to write, modify, combine and share software. We need a tool that makes writing software easy and fun, and accessible to everyone. A tool that enables software literacy. Global access to niche knowledge doesn't seem like an effective use of the world's time to me. Let's look at this same idea, but replace "develop software" with "perfo…

I disagree with your analogy. In my opinion, programming is more analogous to composition. Most courses of study require at least one composition course, because no matter what discipline you're studying, it's important that you be able to organize your thoughts and express them clearly as well as understand the formal expressions of others. I personally experience a huge overlap between ordering my thoughts for writ…

Why not we (software developers) take the route of improving end-user software and letting people easily accomplish their mundane everyday tasks, instead of letting them program as a remedy to the sorry state of software? Have you looked at it that way? Would people buy a car that required them to tweak it and service it right after it went out of the showroom?

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#48

Post by sowbug » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

dreta wrote: post #14

This industry is in its infancy. We have some of the greatest minds working in it, and yet we barely know how to make things work right, and OP’s suggesting we try and design tools that an average person can use to create powerful software. How about we let highly-trained specialists figure out how to write complex software first, before we try to teach average programmers how to do it, and perhaps then we can turn o…

Making computers incredibly simple to use seems to have worked out well in the case of the iPhone. Lots of common usability problems in computer UI simply went away with a much better design. It's hard to say where the mobile-phone industry would be today if that shift hadn't happened in 2007.

Perhaps the same could happen for computer programming. For example, in the 1990s, HTML introduced coding to lots of people who otherwise probably wouldn't ever have considered it. A forgiving declarative interface was a lot more appealing than learning what compilers, linkers, functions, parameters, and APIs were.

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#49

Post by synctext » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #38

coderjames wrote: post #24

>To fix this, we need to increase the currently tiny number of people who are able to write, modify, combine and share software. We need a tool that makes writing software easy and fun, and accessible to everyone. A tool that enables software literacy. Global access to niche knowledge doesn't seem like an effective use of the world's time to me. Let's look at this same idea, but replace "develop software" with "perfo…

I disagree with your analogy. In my opinion, programming is more analogous to composition. Most courses of study require at least one composition course, because no matter what discipline you're studying, it's important that you be able to organize your thoughts and express them clearly as well as understand the formal expressions of others. I personally experience a huge overlap between ordering my thoughts for writ…

> Apart from implementation details of hardware platforms and runtimes

The platform described to share all this knowledge and code is beyond what humanity can build today. The manifesto described that we share "All cells exist in a single, globally shared hierarchy". The trust problem has many forms, from trusted medical info on Wikipedia, Facebook fake news filtering, to open Github code with hidden backdoors.

See a list of 100+ projects that are struggling with trust and full decentralisation: https://github.com/redecentralize/alternative-internet

Re: What's wrong with Software nowadays and how we can fix it

#50

Post by trolor » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

skywhopper wrote: post #46

Anyone who says this: in the virtual world of computers, everything can be replicated, from complex physical phenomena to abstract ideas, and even your own mind. Does not understand computers well enough to be lecturing the world about the need for software "literacy". The assertion that computers can represent any of those things is a complete falsehood. Computers are great with complex mathematical models of physic…

>One of the first things you learn in Computer Science is that not all problems can be solved with a computer.

Oh ... could you elaborate? I think my cut-rate, community college degree skipped that part :) it seems like a useful thing to know!