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Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

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Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#111
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what's dangerous is that those sites operate in country where getting a gun is so damn easy

I'm kind of surprised that the interaction between bonkers US conspiracy politics and actual shootings is so _low_. It's as if the beliefs have a sort of ritual status that "everybody knows" they're not expected to act on.

The biggest reason is that most of the Dale Gribbles of the world, just like the local college's Revolutionary Socialist club, are all talk. It takes a lot of commitment to actually carry out a shooting or bombing or whatever, and most people are happy to say "This is really bad. Someone oughta do something, and it's good thing that I'm aware of this unlike the rest of the sheeple" while doing absolutely nothing to effect that agenda.

The people who actually manage to commit these acts are on an entirely different level of nuts.

Pedestrian example: How many gung-ho teenagers talk about joining the military? How many of them actually go through with talking to a recruiter, going to MEPS, and signing on the dotted line? And that's for a cause that is widely accepted by society and confers actual benefits rather than guaranteed violent death or lifelong incarceration in an elaborate concrete box in rural Colorado.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#112
post #17

> We are not in the business of picking which issues the world should read about. We are in the business of connecting people and ideas — and matching people with the stories they find most meaningful. Our integrity depends on being inclusive of all perspectives and view points, and using ranking to connect people with the stories and sources they find the most meaningful and engaging. Simply incredible. They are ass…

> Facebook simply kills democracy for their own benefit. Give me a break. It's not Facebook's job to tell the truth from the lies. They provide a social network, for profit. They are not a charity or a non profit. They sell ads. If "news filtering" aligns with their bottom-line they'll do it, if it doesn't, they won't, that's business. Now to anybody who thinks he can control the internet and what people read/think/d…

Did you even read his comment. He was talking about facebook already manipulating content to only give content people want without opposing viewpoints thus creating small bubbles around us. When it's their own algorithms causing the problem then it is their job to fix it.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#113
My personal view is that low regulation advertising is simply not compatible with Western Democracy. If you don't regulate away emotive and brand advertising you're corrupting all the systems that are supposed to regulate our societies (for brevity "advertising" refers to brand and emotive advertising in the below).

The basic idea of how information flows & control works in western market driven democratic republics:

People -> Government -> Markets The People Elect their Government. The Government controls the rules of "The Market". The People decide what they want in their day to day lives, demand it from actors in "The Market". Those who fulfill these needs are rewarded and copied. Information moves from consumers to market actors rapidly, this information is hard to fake.

This is very much how markets that don't have much advertising work, take rice, wheat, logistics. Success demands you provide a better product at lower cost. People can easily compare products so you _must_ compete on price, the companies get very efficient they make stuff people want cheaply.

What does advertising do to the above system? Firstly your market starts rewarding the best liars and cheats. Make cheap crappy sewing machines whilst buying out previously good sewing machine brands and running their name into the dirt? FANTASTIC! HUGE REWARD! DO MORE OF THIS. Make soft drinks of dubious health value but persuade people that their consumption is necessary to their social lives? FANTASTIC! HUGE REWARD!

If this wasn't bad enough the advertisers are able to give away entertainment and news content for free. Most people do not want to pay for things and aren't aware how subtle and pervasive the lies are. So most people lap this free information up, so now the advertisers hold the purse strings on every media channel out there. The advertisers control the people, the advertisers control the market.

Adverts -> Government -> Market The final negative impact is the huge swaths of people who are working incredibly hard at a net loss for society at large. People who aren't working making things other people want. People who are working at making other people want things they otherwise wouldn't. Wonder why we aren't working 15 hour weeks as predicted by Keynes? Blame all the people making adverts and everyone who's making content funded by those adverts.

Fake news & Facebook are the latest and worst examples of this corruption. But really it's just a symptom of the underlying disease. After we've perfected mechanization and economies of scale large profits require you fool people into making bad decisions. Doing this is lucrative and since our markets are evolutionary optimizing machines we are going to see it get worse unless we take action to stop it.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#114
post #50

> We are not in the business of picking which issues the world should read about. We are in the business of connecting people and ideas — and matching people with the stories they find most meaningful. Our integrity depends on being inclusive of all perspectives and view points, and using ranking to connect people with the stories and sources they find the most meaningful and engaging. Simply incredible. They are ass…

> They are asserting themselves only as a business and not emotional influencers...The emotional influences that facebook brings in people is very powerful. The same could be said of TV networks, Spotify, Twitter, Google photos. We are the catalyst that turn stories, music, photos into emotional reactions. We control the dials. Facebook makes it incredibly easy to step outside our bubbles. Click the Like button on a…

> Click the Like button on a Page that challenges your beliefs, interact with that information and you'll see more of it.

That's precisely the problem with it. I'd like to read more on extremists groups and see how and why they exists, what kind of people they are, why do they think the way they do, what their fight is in our society. This is the first step to build a dialog.

However, "liking" their pages is out of question. I will not support them, I will not help them further their propaganda, their hateful rhetoric. I would like to understand them, but in no way do I want to support them.

In that sense, Facebook actively discourage dialog and openness to other ideas, because the only way to receive these ideas is also to make them more relevant than they ought to be.

There should be a way for us to navigate different bubbles, to inhabit different, neutral profiles to explore other niches of population, other ways of life within our own society. In that regard, Facebook is useless because it is not interesting for their business.

Reddit can work, but Reddit also has unpenetrable walls sometimes. However, it is already much better than Facebook or Google.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I follow him but i have never seen his tweets though. They are big but not as big as facebook especially in the emerging markets. My mum uses FB everyday but she has no idea about reddit whatsoever. She has heard about the name twitter from some news channel. Do you understand the difference?

> My mum uses FB everyday Facebook has 1.7 billion users; that is more than Twitter's 313 million and Reddit'a tens of millions [1]. I am agreeing with your point, in this limited case, albeit not with how you're making it. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/272014/global-social-net...

Yo I'm from India.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#116
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are asserting themselves only as a business and not emotional influencers...The emotional influences that facebook brings in people is very powerful. The same could be said of TV networks, Spotify, Twitter, Google photos. We are the catalyst that turn stories, music, photos into emotional reactions. We control the dials. Facebook makes it incredibly easy to step outside our bubbles. Click the Like button on a…

Facebook wants to be a window on the world. But it's delivery is a takeout window that delivers Big Macs and potato chips.

its delivery

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#117

It's interesting when Zuck says that "...We’ve gone from a world of isolated communities to one global community, and we’re all better off for it..." he's exactly wrong. FB has created much more stronger community segmentation. Were you that weird guy in your village who believe aliens built the pyramids? Before, you'd have to interact with those villagers. They'd have to interact with you. Neither of you would like…

> bullshit your way into thinking that somehow you are changing the world.

Yet in the paragraphs before that you are speaking about how facebook _is_ changing the world.

Apart from that minor (mistake?) thing, I do agree with you fully. Using facebook is a good way to surround yourself with people who think and do exactly as you do, which is not beneficial.

Same goes for other types of social media, but you can break it easier with for example twitter. You can follow people with different ideas than yourself and be challenged by their view, which is a healthy thing to do. I feel like the treshold to that is lower on twitter than on facebook. But then again, I am not a facebook user myself since a couple of years ago, and that experience might have changed.

Though on the flipside, it can also be used for good. Not because you are into some kind of weird belief that will be reinforced by others, but for example imagine that you want to learn esperanto, there might be facebook groups full of people doing the same and it might help you learn it with greater ease.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#118
post #91
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ignorance is killing democracy. No it is worse. Misinformation is killing democracy. And that's exactly where Facebook is a problem.

Basically you might as well say that's why the internet is a "problem".

Not Internet, the Web. And not the web, but the way we have started using it.

We sell analytics and data about people. This data is more valuable the more people there are to sell. This popularity metric will thus foster popularity contests, where inane content and disinformation is put forward. This is the problem.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#119
post #28

> We are not in the business of picking which issues the world should read about. We are in the business of connecting people and ideas — and matching people with the stories they find most meaningful. Our integrity depends on being inclusive of all perspectives and view points, and using ranking to connect people with the stories and sources they find the most meaningful and engaging. Simply incredible. They are ass…

Ignorance is killing democracy. And that’s not Facebook’s problem. It’s an educational problem. Our education system is failing to instill critical thinking into young people. So they go out in the world and become adults who are easily duped into this idea or that because they lack the skills and the mindset to evaluate opposing viewpoints. Sure the Internet has made things worse, and that’s a bit shocking for those…

> Our education system is failing to instill critical thinking into young people.

I'm convinced this is the key.

However, media outlets (social or otherwise) also have a responsibility of, at the very least, not spreading stories that are demonstrably, factually inaccurate, even if it impacts their "bottom line". Naive and hopeful, I know, but there are two sides to it.

Re: Facebook’s Walled Wonderland Is Inherently Incompatible with News

#120
post #28

> We are not in the business of picking which issues the world should read about. We are in the business of connecting people and ideas — and matching people with the stories they find most meaningful. Our integrity depends on being inclusive of all perspectives and view points, and using ranking to connect people with the stories and sources they find the most meaningful and engaging. Simply incredible. They are ass…

Ignorance is killing democracy. And that’s not Facebook’s problem. It’s an educational problem. Our education system is failing to instill critical thinking into young people. So they go out in the world and become adults who are easily duped into this idea or that because they lack the skills and the mindset to evaluate opposing viewpoints. Sure the Internet has made things worse, and that’s a bit shocking for those…

I hear you on the lack of critical thinking, instead it's being replaced by a defaulting to a conformist view of surrounding peers. In harder sciences this is easier to combat because of objective data but personal viewpoints have jack-diddly to do with logic/reason.

I was 'attending' a 400 level course on contemporary arts at my local university and the groupthink exhibited by the students was insane. With only 7 students in the class it was intimate and dialogue based. Just for the sake of provoking actual defences and backing to viewpoints I took up a contrarian stance on damn near every topic.

Sure I was labelled a racist, bigoted close minded hoser. But the conversations were integral to proper development of critical skills. The professor told me at the end of the year that the only reason she let me remain in her class (as opposed to booting me out as I wasn't a student or qualified) was because of this generated dialogue.

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