The State of European Tech 2016 • Hacker News Board

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#21

Post by LeanderK » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:08 AM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #14

jfaucett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. I live in Europe, am a part of the tech scene, and am sitting in the contitental craziness you speak of in Germany. This report is largely nonsense. It talks about "top research institutions" are in Europe, neglecting the #1,#2,#4,#5, and #6 in the world are in the USA. [1] Honestly, I have no idea why an investor would want to try to tackle this nightmare of 30+ target markets, especially when you…

> It talks about "top research institutions" are in Europe, neglecting the #1,#2,#4,#5, and #6 in the world are in the USA. [1] If you don't count any German research institutions, and only count those releasing their results in US magazines. Sure. If I don't count for-profit universities, and only those releasing their results in Esperanto, I can also top my own ranking. Those rankings completely ignore that in Euro…

while i think you're right, but these things are not always visible to an developer/foreigner. Fraunhofer is not as visible as they should, because they are conduction a lot of commercial research in joint ventures with local businesses and are not specialising into research areas where they are most visible. I recently read an interview with the director of an ivy-league university where he stated that they only finance research team that have an realistic shot at being leading, outstanding and visible in the research world. If you compare that to germany where you might end up in one of the countless mechanical engineering research groups it's way harder to be outstanding, just because it's more crowded. But that's not what the Fraunhofer Society is about, it's doing very practical research, mostly driven by local businesses and their needs.

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#22

Post by deepnotderp » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:38 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #16

deepnotderp wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First sentence is a great summary...

> We’re excited to share the second edition of The State of European Tech report with you. Ah, so they are excited.

I meant the first sentence of OP's comment lol. "not visible on mobile"

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#23

Post by cyberpunk » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:40 AM UTC

hocuspocus wrote: post #12

wrong_variable wrote: post #7

(cough cringe PR cough) You could create similar optimistic charts for US, China, India, etc. The EU ( 550 million ) tech industry is dwarfed by the US ( 350 million ) Looking from a higher abstract plane, EU produces the least new entrepreneurs and innovative companies compared to the beast that is US and Asia. The EU also has the most unstable political and financial system globally with entire countries on the ver…

> The reason why every European developer migrates to London is to escape the craziness of the continent. > Every European developer's final 'dream' is to work in the US tech industry - London is the second best thing to reach. Sorry but no. I think you're delusional about tech salaries in London. And if you want to sell your soul to the finance industry, there are other places where developers make good money, witho…

Contract rates in London are really rather good, at least in my particular little world (ops/"devops")...

Really, we're talking minimum 500gbp/day and there is so much work you can quit a contract and have another within hours....

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#24

Post by kuschku » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 1:02 AM UTC

LeanderK wrote: post #21

kuschku wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It talks about "top research institutions" are in Europe, neglecting the #1,#2,#4,#5, and #6 in the world are in the USA. [1] If you don't count any German research institutions, and only count those releasing their results in US magazines. Sure. If I don't count for-profit universities, and only those releasing their results in Esperanto, I can also top my own ranking. Those rankings completely ignore that in Euro…

while i think you're right, but these things are not always visible to an developer/foreigner. Fraunhofer is not as visible as they should, because they are conduction a lot of commercial research in joint ventures with local businesses and are not specialising into research areas where they are most visible. I recently read an interview with the director of an ivy-league university where he stated that they only fin…

Indeed. That's an issue Germany seems to have repeatedly recently: While the US went full on into marketing, we've never done that - and that's exactly what's missing, not the research, but the marketing and propaganda of being the #1.

If we actually want that, though, is another question.

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#25

Post by cyberpunk » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 1:04 AM UTC

jfaucett wrote: post #8

wrong_variable wrote: post #7

(cough cringe PR cough) You could create similar optimistic charts for US, China, India, etc. The EU ( 550 million ) tech industry is dwarfed by the US ( 350 million ) Looking from a higher abstract plane, EU produces the least new entrepreneurs and innovative companies compared to the beast that is US and Asia. The EU also has the most unstable political and financial system globally with entire countries on the ver…

Completely agree. I live in Europe, am a part of the tech scene, and am sitting in the contitental craziness you speak of in Germany. This report is largely nonsense. It talks about "top research institutions" are in Europe, neglecting the #1,#2,#4,#5, and #6 in the world are in the USA. [1] Honestly, I have no idea why an investor would want to try to tackle this nightmare of 30+ target markets, especially when you…

Hmm. I'd really like to hear more about how you see things if you've got the time..

I'm about to exit london for .de simply because of quality of life concerns; the 1000ft view I'm holding though is I'm pretty sure I'll be able to build a crew there which will have fun working on difficult problems, and hopefully even find a reasonable amount of 'stuff' to do (surely with internet access and some good staff picks that could be applied almost anywhere in the world?) -- while you're probably right in that the vast floods of VC cash won't be so available there (I don't think the situ in london is much diff anyway) or that things are more complex w/r/t markets; I'm not sure that I really care too much about "30+" target markets when we're talking B2B hardcore geekery stuff. We make an API to solve -some-random-hackernews_capable_consumer-problem- then I'm not sure having a few diff VAT rules around .eu is anything more than some extra time billed by my accountant..

What I'm more concerned about is the work/company culture differences there which will probably at a minimum will prevent me whoring myself out for some quick cash to fund my devs, should things get tight, and at a max make it much harder to sell to Gmbh's there...

Are you in Germany? Ever worked with a German company or tried to integrate your product with theirs? The vogons have a quicker moving bureaucracy, I was really shocked. The crazy adherence to working hours, clocking in/out for breaks and such even for senior technical staff creates a really strange dynamic especially if you're used to letting your teams do whatever the hell they want as long as you're delivering. This kind of free attitude to work seems largely to only exist in London, at least to me -- and once you've walked on the wild side it's hard to accept a master.. shrug

Germany may have excellent technical prowess in manufacturing and such; from our side of the perspective though, so far to me at de $bigcorp it seems like SAP, 2 week change windows, hour long discussions on what FTP client the customer uses, J2EE, Oracle, monitored lunch breaks and some very overqualified staff (call me 'dr') who aren't even interesting in moving faster...

I guess there are a lot of startups there which follow a model more like what we're used to, but after so long you're not going to be able to avoid working with the vogons if you're selling them software they want to integrate with..

I'm not sure the majority view of big german businesses really even understood what agile was pushing for.. Hopefully I'm wrong, I'll find out soon anyhow, but things seem really fucking backwards compared to how we've been living even in the relative backwater that's London....

What's your view?

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#26

Post by cyberpunk » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 1:10 AM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #17

wrong_variable wrote: post #7

(cough cringe PR cough) You could create similar optimistic charts for US, China, India, etc. The EU ( 550 million ) tech industry is dwarfed by the US ( 350 million ) Looking from a higher abstract plane, EU produces the least new entrepreneurs and innovative companies compared to the beast that is US and Asia. The EU also has the most unstable political and financial system globally with entire countries on the ver…

As an American who recently moved to London, I agree with this. The salaries here are shockingly lower, especially considering how expensive London cost of living is. I wound up just working remotely for a SF firm, which I realize is a luxury thanks to my US passport.

Out of curiosity what area are you working in and if you're willing to share, what sort of numbers are we talking about?

London salaries have always been rather good in my view (if we ignore the shocking cost of living here) and although the higher remittances tend to based on experience here vs having a good degree, I'm not sure for me at least I could make more money anywhere else outside of the arab countries.

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#27

Post by coldtea » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 1:26 AM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #20

coldtea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always cringe when I hear software execs talk of being a leader in their home country. Yeah, because making millions (or billions) in one's home country is cringe-worthy.

It's OK, if you look at it as a cow to be milked until a multinational drives you out of business. From a business perspective there's nothing necessarily wrong with milking a cow until it runs dry, but you should have made a conscious decision to do it. The execs I'm talking about haven't.

>It's OK, if you look at it as a cow to be milked until a multinational drives you out of business.

That's not a given. There are tons of entrenched companies, from web services to local restaurants, than no multinational managed to drive out of business.

In many cases the multinational had to work with them or buy them to gain a serious share into a particular country.

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#28

Post by exceptione » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 1:45 AM UTC

cyberpunk wrote: post #25

jfaucett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. I live in Europe, am a part of the tech scene, and am sitting in the contitental craziness you speak of in Germany. This report is largely nonsense. It talks about "top research institutions" are in Europe, neglecting the #1,#2,#4,#5, and #6 in the world are in the USA. [1] Honestly, I have no idea why an investor would want to try to tackle this nightmare of 30+ target markets, especially when you…

Hmm. I'd really like to hear more about how you see things if you've got the time.. I'm about to exit london for .de simply because of quality of life concerns; the 1000ft view I'm holding though is I'm pretty sure I'll be able to build a crew there which will have fun working on difficult problems, and hopefully even find a reasonable amount of 'stuff' to do (surely with internet access and some good staff picks tha…

It is not what you are asking for, but as I repeatedly hear is that The Netherlands is closer to the UK with regards to the business practice. Less strict, less formal, no hierarchies. But VC isn't big in The Netherlands as well. Salaries are still a joke compared to the US.

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#29

Post by cyberpunk » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:01 AM UTC

exceptione wrote: post #28

cyberpunk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. I'd really like to hear more about how you see things if you've got the time.. I'm about to exit london for .de simply because of quality of life concerns; the 1000ft view I'm holding though is I'm pretty sure I'll be able to build a crew there which will have fun working on difficult problems, and hopefully even find a reasonable amount of 'stuff' to do (surely with internet access and some good staff picks tha…

It is not what you are asking for, but as I repeatedly hear is that The Netherlands is closer to the UK with regards to the business practice. Less strict, less formal, no hierarchies. But VC isn't big in The Netherlands as well. Salaries are still a joke compared to the US.

I worked in NL a few years ago and the corp culture there was good generally. I'll never acknowledge frikandellen as fit for human consumption however..

I'm not sure about the money argument still though -- a joke? How much more money do you think your avg dev is getting paid in the US vs what we get here in Europe? A regular employee/salaried dev is looking at at least 90k euro/year in nl, which is a very very comfortable living before bonus/benefits and NL also has the 13'th month thing which allows for easy laptop buying every year... Senior/Lead folks are looking at more plus options and whatever..

It's obviously a hard thing to measure, but I think the quality of life argument for your typical european is somewhat higher than your generic american worker (25 days holiday, employee-biased employment laws, various lifestyle protections (e.g in holland if you're a fully 'paid up' taxpayer and you lose your job then the govt will give you some 75% of your last salary while you find another role)).

I guess there's no way to really compare all these things, there are too many other factors -- I'm really curious on how much more money you're talking about here though...

Re: The State of European Tech 2016

#30

Post by lispm » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 2:35 AM UTC

cyberpunk wrote: post #23

hocuspocus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why every European developer migrates to London is to escape the craziness of the continent. > Every European developer's final 'dream' is to work in the US tech industry - London is the second best thing to reach. Sorry but no. I think you're delusional about tech salaries in London. And if you want to sell your soul to the finance industry, there are other places where developers make good money, witho…

Contract rates in London are really rather good, at least in my particular little world (ops/"devops")... Really, we're talking minimum 500gbp/day and there is so much work you can quit a contract and have another within hours....

that does seem to be rather low for an expensive city and a falling currency.