No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems • Hacker News Board

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#31

Post by headconnect » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

Dagwoodie wrote: post #9

This article is dangerous. On the surface it may sound good, but there is behavior so vile and harmful to the child, family or neighbors that never showing negative reinforcement is extremely dangerous with some children. It does have some merits though, showing plenty of positive reinforcement will likely reduce the amount of negative reinforcement needed.

Fully understand what you're describing, though it's worthwhile to consider the articles position which essentially states that negative reinforcement will likely prolong and intensify the behavior which prompted the reaction in the first place.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#32

Post by sidlls » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:17 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #26

dom0 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitting children is legal in the US?

No. Child abuse is taken seriously in the US, and hitting children in schools with get people fired, if not prosecuted. I'm sure it does still happen, but that does not mean it is widely accepted.

Regarding schools that's on a state by state and district by district basis. It is very legal for a principal or other officers of a school to use corporal punishment if the state and local laws permit it.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#33

Post by ecopoesis » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:19 PM UTC

dom0 wrote: post #21

DanBC wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in the context of the US where violence against the child is common place; widely accepted; even if the parent has used a weapon to do so; even if it's not a parent but a school[1]; and where there's no hope that hitting children will ever become illegal. [1] a weirdly large number of schoolchildren are still hit in the US.

Hitting children is legal in the US?

It depends on the state.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934191.html

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#34

Post by pappyo » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #14

biofox wrote: post #4

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference. This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might…

I don't understand how people think this is honest. You're clearly using your cognitive advantage (or in the case of a boss, usually an organizational info advantage) to trick the other person. I remember as I grew up noticing when adults were doing this, and I resented them for it. Why would I want my kids to feel that way about me?

Any cognitive advantage that is abused will be seen as manipulative, absolutely. The way to make "the illusion of choice" work is to be selective about it. You start out by giving the 4 year old the illusion of choice (the jacket or the sweater), but what you're really doing is coaching the child to make appropriate decisions. After a few times, you won't have to give the child the choice anymore, because they will know the parameters of the choices for the challenge facing them. You could simply say "let's get ready to go out."

Same thing with a boss. (S)he can use this cognitive tool to coach good decisions. People like choice and they like being right. Using this method allows for both.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#35

Post by threatofrain » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

Dagwoodie wrote: post #9

This article is dangerous. On the surface it may sound good, but there is behavior so vile and harmful to the child, family or neighbors that never showing negative reinforcement is extremely dangerous with some children. It does have some merits though, showing plenty of positive reinforcement will likely reduce the amount of negative reinforcement needed.

There's a mild difference between punishment and negative reinforcement, and this article is just arguing against .

The difference between punishment and negative reinforcement is in how one models the relationship between cause and effect, and how you are increasing or decreasing behavioral frequency.

The important aspect behind punishment or negative reinforcement isn't negativity or pain, but a model of learning that has since fallen out of favor versus bayesian causal learning models.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#36

Post by ThrustVectoring » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

How you modify your children's behavior is beside the point, IMO. What's really important is whether the modification is in the child's best interest, or merely convenient or beneficial to the parent.

Some folks get it and won't fuck up their kids too badly, even with bad technique. Others don't and will do lasting harm, even without using abusive techniques to get compliance.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#37

Post by heisenbit » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:28 PM UTC

Dagwoodie wrote: post #9

This article is dangerous. On the surface it may sound good, but there is behavior so vile and harmful to the child, family or neighbors that never showing negative reinforcement is extremely dangerous with some children. It does have some merits though, showing plenty of positive reinforcement will likely reduce the amount of negative reinforcement needed.

Of course there is extremely bad and dangerous behavior. But then there is extremely bad and dangerous behavior we don't have true control over - typical examples are compulsive, drug induced or depressed behavior. And yes, all of them need professional attention but that does not preclude us spending significant time with such persons.

With negative feedback it gets tricky very quickly as there is such a thing called intermittent re-enforcement - one provides inconsistent strong negative feedback and behavior gets worse and more persistent.

Enforcing hard limits consistently requires careful thinking and acting. It does have value in some cases. There is however a risk getting stuck thinking about the problem not solution. The author argues a solution focused approach is more effective in most cases. I don't think he covered clinical or criminal situations.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#38

Post by theli0nheart » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:29 PM UTC

> Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s behavior. Instead, he advocates for a radical technique in which parents positively reinforce the behavior they do want to see until the negative behavior eventually goes away.

We adopted a puppy a little more than a year ago and this was the exact advice we were given for how to train her. Puppies and little kids are remarkably similar, and the key to training a dog is not to "punish" them when they do something wrong (they'll just get scared of you), but rather to reinforce the good behaviors, reward them when they listen, and essentially just ignore them when they don't.

In practice, after a year, this technique has worked great. Our puppy listens to us, respects us, and despite being absolutely crazy, will drop everything if she hears us call her. We didn't even need to train her to avoid eating the baby's toys since I think she understood that she received more praise when playing with "her" toys.

Our baby is only six months old so we'll have to report back in a decade as to whether this approach works well with kids too. :)

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#39

Post by bmy78 » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:33 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #14

biofox wrote: post #4

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference. This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might…

I don't understand how people think this is honest. You're clearly using your cognitive advantage (or in the case of a boss, usually an organizational info advantage) to trick the other person. I remember as I grew up noticing when adults were doing this, and I resented them for it. Why would I want my kids to feel that way about me?

It's not "tricking", unless you're letting your toddler dictate whether you should leave the house. Toddlers don't have a choice over that; instead, you're giving the toddler a choice appropriate to their level. That helps build their cognitive abilities and takes the focus away from whether they want to leave the house (a choice they shouldn't make), to whether they want the sweater or coat (a choice reasonable for them).

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#40

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 8:38 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #26

dom0 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitting children is legal in the US?

No. Child abuse is taken seriously in the US, and hitting children in schools with get people fired, if not prosecuted. I'm sure it does still happen, but that does not mean it is widely accepted.

This definitely depends on where you live. I don't know if it's still called "swats" like it was when I got hit (with a long wooden paddle!) in school, but any poll taken around here would find a majority in favor of corporal punishment in educational settings.