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Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

independent.co.uk

51–60 of 166 posts

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#51

I'm no means on expert on this, but having delt a little with online transactions from testing responses from a payment processor. The things that needed to match also involved the customers street address, zip and name. If I recall these were scored and if the match wasn't good (zip was entered wrong) the transaction was rejected. Maybe different payment processors have different thresholds for rejecting a transacti…

For US based transactions, AVS failures (address, zip) don't typically fail the transactions.

Most often, the api has 3 possible return values "Success", "Success With Warnings" and "Failure".

The "Success with Warnings" will have some error codes for AVS failures (street address, zip). Usually the same for invalid CVV2. I've also noticed that cardholder name matching isn't universally supported...AMEX does it well, but VISA/MC is hit or miss.

Most merchants choose to allow for "Success with Warnings" and then manually check them.

It's hard to automate, because it's very typical for real customers to mistype billing addresses, CVV2, etc. One good example is small business owners. They, very often, use their business address as billing, even when the billing address is actually their home address.

In short, you can configure for hard failure on address mismatch or CVV2 mismatch, but you're throwing away a lot of legit transactions if you do so.

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#52
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't have forbidden business lists just because they don't like pornography or sex toys. Those are "high-risk" mainly because of "reputational risk", not because of chargebacks. Which I imagine is code for Visa or the banks thinking "If too many people with traditional morals get into political office, they'll start cracking down on us if we do business with the sex toy companies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

ACH still has chargebacks. For up to six months after the debit, no less.

[deleted]

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#53

So criminals can guess a valid CC/CVC/Zip in 6 seconds, and merchants that get nothing but green lights across the board from their credit card processor will be left holding the bag when the card holder disputes the charge. Merchants doing everything they can need better protection from this crap.

The merchant is not just left holding the bag. The merchant has to buy the bag...and it is not a cheap paper or plastic bad. It is a fancy, expensive, designer bag. When a charge is disputed, the merchant pays a fee of typically $15-30, regardless of who wins the dispute.

In other words, there are two possible outcomes to a dispute:

1. Merchant loses. Merchant refunds in full that amount of the charge plus $15-30 for the charge back processing fee.

2. Merchant wins. Merchants gets to keep the amount of the charge, but still must pay the $15-30 charge back processing fee.

From the merchant point of view, the credit card system is very annoying in that regard. If anything happens that requires that someone gets screwed, that someone will be the merchant.

The banks will not allow themselves to be screwed, because they run the system.

The credit card holder is a direct client of the banks, and the banks protect them to keep them happy.

The merchant account provider, which is where the credit card companies actually send the money for the merchant's sales, and is the entity that the credit card companies turn directly to in the case of chargebacks or fraud, protects itself by holding back part of the money it owes the merchant. The merchant account provider ends up holding a buffer of sometimes tens of thousands of dollars of the merchant's sales.

Worse, the merchant does not appear to be able to really know when payment from a credit card is actually final. According to nearly everything I can find on the net and in credit card company documentation, the limit on how old a charge can be charged back is 6 months or 1 year.

I know that is wrong because at a company whose payment handling software I maintain, we got a charge back on a transaction that was several months past a year old.

Another thing I saw that I would have thought impossible had I not actually saw it, was we had a customer who bought a subscription to a monthly service. The initial purchase went through fine (transaction comes back approved, and a day or two later shows up as settled and paid). The renewal next month went through, and so on, for the next six months or so.

Then we got a notice that the last several of these had not actually went through. The issuing bank had told the credit card processor that the transaction was approved, but we were told it was really declined, and no money was actually transferred.

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't have forbidden business lists just because they don't like pornography or sex toys. Those are "high-risk" mainly because of "reputational risk", not because of chargebacks. Which I imagine is code for Visa or the banks thinking "If too many people with traditional morals get into political office, they'll start cracking down on us if we do business with the sex toy companies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

ACH still has chargebacks. For up to six months after the debit, no less.

It does, but the only allowable reason is "not authorized". Of course, for this type of fraud, that's the reason that matters.

Thought it worth mentioning though, because in the CC world, a lot of the fraud is return fraud. Like "Item Not Received" or "Not as Described" being used when they aren't true.

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#56
post #40
post #25

A solution that some banks provide is to enable a credit card for only transactions using 3-D Secure [1], in which you are expected to enter a 2FA code sent to your phone by the bank during transaction to a webpage of the bank that gets opened. Unfortunately, some (most) websites don't support 3-D Secure. I remember that almost all Turkish e-commerce sites I shopped supported it but almost none of the American sites…

Does your bank also reject all non 3-D Secure transactions? Unless this is the case, having 3-D Secure only benefits merchants as the liability will now be shifted from the merchant to the cardholder (e.g. the cardholder is now liable for fraud) while the (stolen) card can still be used for a non 3-D Secure payments.

The liability is with the merchant for non 3D secure payments, just as it's with the provider for old stripe-and-signature payments even after the switch to chip-and-pin.

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#57
post #3

The power of distributed attacks. Of course they can only guess a random correct credit card + exp + code not yours. Given the relative limited number of codes for each bank, I wonder what the odds are for them to wind up with yours.

...for every valid/correct credit card? The answer is a ratio of 1:x_1, where x_1 is every correct cc. And each correct cc is a ratio to the total number of cc vulnerable to the system of attack, 1:x_2; and this is in turn a ratio of 1:x_3, for all the currently valid cc, etc.etc. Right? But what's more concerning is all of the successful fraudulant activity is adding to the loss those banks are adding to their books…

>the loss those banks are adding to their books

There is no loss to the banks, assuming the fraudulent purchases are "card not present". The loss goes to the selling merchant. Your point of it being collectively passed on to the consumer is still true, of course.

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#58

Shouldn't this be easy to detect, though? Every attempt to use a credit card number online involves a request to the bank providing that card to determine if it's valid, right? So the bank would see thousands of attempts across hundreds of websites for the same card number in a matter of seconds, which is clearly impossible for a human, and flag the card as "stolen". Or maybe I'm just way too optimistic about how thi…

That was one of the points in the article. Since the merchant implements the limit and not the bank itself, you work across N merchants and you get plenty of attempts.

And if the merchant is trying to be "consumer friendly" and accepts a relatively high number of failures before blocking the transaction, the allowed number of attempts is probably staggering.

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#59
post #41
post #25

A solution that some banks provide is to enable a credit card for only transactions using 3-D Secure [1], in which you are expected to enter a 2FA code sent to your phone by the bank during transaction to a webpage of the bank that gets opened. Unfortunately, some (most) websites don't support 3-D Secure. I remember that almost all Turkish e-commerce sites I shopped supported it but almost none of the American sites…

As a customer I hate these 2FA codes and online bank confirmations, common in the EU. I don't want to bring my bank passwords and whatnot with me if I want to make an online purchase with my CC!

As a customer they are also entirely to your disadvantage as in any 3dsecure transaction the customer is liable for unauthorized transactions as the assumption is they are the only ones with the ability to authorize. This makes disputing charges extremely difficult for the customer, and shifts liability from the bank and merchant to the customer end.

Re: Criminals can guess Visa number and security code in six seconds, experts find

#60
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matercard supposedly has a single back end but VISA does not, according to the article. Given the distributed nature of the attack I imagine only the card processors could detect it; if you pick sufficiently broad set of web site to test with the chances of them sharing a server that could detect something is probably low.

I remember seeing the VISA security centre, where they monitor threats etc. It was a huge high tech facility. I would think that they flag if a card is attempted a lot of times in short time span.

Apparently, VISA does not do this.

The actual research paper is online: http://eprint.ncl.ac.uk/file_store/production/230123/1918024...

It says this: "Whereas MasterCard’s centralised network detects the guessing attack after fewer than 10 attempts (even when those attempts were distributed across multiple websites), Visa’s payment ecosystem does not prevent the attack"

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