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A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

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Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#71
post #13

I hadn't considered the removal of the esc key from a vi/emacs perspective. Is this something that can be lived with?

I remap Caps-Lock to a Ctrl/Esc combination: When it's pressed and released on its own, it sends an Esc; when it's used as a modifier key (pressed together with another key), it sends a Ctrl. I haven't touched the Esc key in years.

When you consider what the keyboard layout on the machine on which vi was made looked like: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/vi/terminal_ADM-3A_keyboard.jpg , it's easy to understand why dual-use caps-lock makes the usage feel smoother and more natural than on regular PC keyboard layout.

For anyone that would like to do this, here are example instructions for both Linux and MacOS: http://www.economyofeffort.com/2014/08/11/beyond-ctrl-remap-...

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#72
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet that it's really in the single digit range. I think lots of programmers dishonestly claim to use it because its some sort of badge of honor to say you do.

Is more from old habits than a badge of honor. Fewer new developers use emacs or vi for coding. But I think "single digits" is too low too. I've been to talks by Microsoft engineers where they code using vi or emacs. One of the reasons is that the IDEs are always a step behind the languages.

> One of the reasons is that the IDEs are always a step behind the languages.

Depends on the language, some of them are IDE friendly, e.g. Java, C#, Eiffel, VB, Delphi, C++ Builder,

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#73

The Pro in Macbook Pro does not stand for "programmer". The device is not catering to the past. The world is not full of UNIX era programmers. Some future programmers are getting their first laptop during the coming holidays. If you think Esc then I is the future of programming tools, I don't know what to tell you.

> The world is not full of UNIX era programmers. It is actually still full of *NIX programmers. What's your real point?

I guess buying a 3000€ device to use it as expensive xterm manager.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#74

The person who reviewed this may have been a programmer, but the review doesn't seem to be in context of programming. I care about how well I can work on it, not now well it works with remotes. > The MacBook Pro is more an evolutionary than a revolutionary upgrade over my MacBook Air. That seems to sum up this review. The macbook pro is a successor to the air, not the old macbook pro.

> That seems to sum up this review. The macbook pro is a successor to the air, not the old macbook pro. I could see that argument for the MBP13 but not 15. You should clarify your remarks if that's what you meant because it looks like you're trolling otherwise.

The problem is that the 15'' pays for the sins of the 13''. It has to be the same thinness and share most of the same components, because of economies of scale (which are basically Cook's religion). But the priority for the 13'' is to be "a better Air, at Pro prices", so most trade-offs made there (33% smaller batteries, no high-power Ram etc) end up crippling the 15''. The artificial push to merge Air and Pro lines sacrificed one half of the audience.

Apple should have taken the boring, predictable step of giving the MacBook a 13'' version, rehashing the 12'' if necessary to match; that would gave been the super-thin Air line. Then they could have designed MBPs around the 15'' and power users -- which is what they basically did to great success in 2010-2012. But I guess the current solution has better margins, so 15'' users can go screw themselves.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#76
I have been using the 2016 MacBook Pro 15'' for more than a week. Overall, I like most things about it. It's nice and thin, the fingerprint reader is a time-saver. I'm also fine with USB-C and the new dongle normal. I'm disappointed about the lack of bump in performance or RAM, but those things are not dealbreakers.

The new touch bar/keyboard combo, however, is. Here are the issues I'm having.

* No tactile feedback. Having no tactile feedback for the Escape key is... unnerving. Did I hit it correctly? Did it do anything? Even if something actually did happen on the screen, a little feeling of self-doubt follows, and you feel like hitting it again. It feels wrong. I'm a developer, and I use the Escape key about 10 times per minute as part of my workflow. Yes, I know that you can map it to Caps-Lock, but chalk it up to 30+ years of muscle memory; I want my Escape key to be where it is, and it's hard to switch, especially since you can't turn the fake Escape off, either during the learning period. (Maybe I should try covering it with tape.)

* Unintended touchbar touches. I discovered to my chagrin that I have a habit of resting my fingers around the area where the function keys are; my default position for the left hand is above QWERTY, and with my fingers outstretched, they reach into the touch bar. This has resulted in some incidents where the machine seems to have come alive and is doing things on its own, when in fact I was just obliviously holding down on the escape key or some other touch bar widget. Muscle-memory again, but then: It'd be nice to be able to be able to just touch my computer without causing accidents.

* It's pretty useless. As a touch typer, I never look at the keyboard. Not even to touch farther-away function keys like volume, play/pause, previous/next. Having a touch bar that changes its contents might be great for novice users who look at the keyboard all the time, but for me, it's a distracting context switch. The app-specific touch bar widgets are also generally useless (the little Safari preview of your browser's page is particularly ridiculous). I can see where they'd be nice for providing "analogue" controls for things like music and audio editing, but the rest are pretty close to useless. Consider the emoji one — sure, maybe it's nice when you use on of the common ones. But the moment you want a snowman, good luck to you, there's no search (unlike the much nicer Ctrl+Cmd+Space dropdown which probably few people know about). In the end, the app controls got so distracting — and the lack of fast one-click access to things like volume and brightness — that I turned off the app controls altogether. Which gives me the same layout, nearly, as my previous MacBook. In conclusion, while the touch bar is clearly technologically very cool, it feels like a marketing gimmick more than a carefully thought-out feature.

* Unintended trackpad touches. Again, you have to rest your hands somewhere. The trackpad is now so big that it's almost impossible not to inadvertently touch it, especially in a resting position. I have now disabled all the gestures so I don't trigger anything unintentionally. It's a nice idea that should probably have received more focus-group testing.

* The arrow keys. This is probably one that I'll get used to, but at this stage it's annoyance. While the new keyboard is probably objectively better than the old one — I like it very much, at least — Apple changed the shape of the arrow keys, which means that they don't feel any different from other keys. Again, as a touch typer, I'm used to just "finding" that pyramid of arrow keys under my first three fingers, and muscle memory is now telling me that left/right aren't positioned correctly, and I keep hitting the Shift instead of Up. Unlike the Esc key, it's probably, hopefully a passing problem because they are, after all, physical keys.

After migrating to the new machine, my productivity went down a surprising amount, which has never happened with an Apple machine before. If these seem like small gripes, keep in mind that as a developer, all I do is type. I see some comments here that "I got used to it"; but after a week, the touch bar is still as disruptive as when I started. I like learning new ways — but only when they're superior to the old way.

At this point, I'm strongly considering returning the machine and going back to my mid-2015 MBP, based on a simple cost/benefit analysis: The bad/meh simply outweighs the good by a wide margin. I still have a few days to decide. I'd love to hear if anyone else had the same gripes and overcame them somehow.

If Apple comes up with a new machine next year that's faster, has longer battery life (I get about 3.5 hours with this working full-time in VSCode, Terminal and Safari, same as my last MBP) and takes at least 32GB RAM, I might weather the bad touch bar, but at this point I fear (and I mean literally that I fear) that a Linux-based laptop might be in my future. It's even possible that I could downgrade to the 13'', which still comes with function keys. Maybe the performance isn't terrible? But it probably is.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took me months to realize (on macbook) ... no one believes me until I power it off and have them try again. Spooky is the word.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke I completely agree though, I checked it out in-store and was far more impressed with the new MBP than the reviews had me believe I would be. People must be very spoiled to downplay it IMO. The keyboard and trackpad are really impressive. I'm debating whether to replace my old desktop with a i7-7700K or pickup the MBP15 1TB with…

I run Linux on my Mac using Veertu, which utilises the apple provided Hypervisor.framework. I've had a lot of success with it performance wise compared to VirtualBox, for example.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#79
post #2

How does a programmer evaluate this machine without discussing at least one of vi and emacs, and the absence of real Esc and Fn keys? By the way, I visited an Apple store and played with the new 15" MBP. It's even worse than I thought. I downloaded the latest Gnu Emacs, and the Fn virtual keys were not available. And in no case did I see the Esc and Fn virtual keys present at the same time. Also ridiculous is the fac…

>If you need access to function keys (F1–F12), hold down the Function (fn) key at the bottom-left of your keyboard. Touch Bar changes to show the function buttons for you to select, and then it returns to its previous state when you release the Function key. From https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204436 .

I have my MBP (with real function keys) set up to not require than I press the Fn key to operate them. Pressing Fn to access the function key is an undesirable workaround.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#80
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world is not full of UNIX era programmers. It is actually still full of *NIX programmers. What's your real point?

I guess buying a 3000€ device to use it as expensive xterm manager.

So? If one likes the quality of the product, why not?
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