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This AI Boom Will Also Bust

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Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#131
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stereo vision is obviously highly effective in biology as it has independently evolved a great many times. Time-of-flight may be poised for a renaissance, but it scales badly and is active, not passive. Stereo vision, and its big brother light fields, are far more general and are certainly not going to "die out".

Yet humans produce terrible depth data.

Humans produce good enough depth data.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "clean data", what exactly do you mean? I've often seen this claim that cleaning data takes a lot of time, but it seems like an ill-defined term.

It can mean different things. In general: duplicate data, missing fields, different formats for different parts of the data, inconsistent naming schemes For text: character encodings, special symbols, escape characters, punctuation, extra or missing spaces and newlines, capitalization For images: different sizes, rotations, crops, blurry images For numbers: inconsistent decimal point/comma, outliers with obviously no…

For user behavior: bots, clickfraud/clickjacking, bored teenagers, competitors who are sussing out your product, people who got confused by your user interface, users who have Javascript disabled and so never trigger your clicktracking, users who are on really old browsers who don't have Javascript to begin with.

And then there's bugs in your data pipeline: browser (particularly IE) bugs, logging bugs, didn't understand your distributed databases's conflict resolution policy bugs, failed attempts at cleaning all the previous categories, incorrect assumptions about the "shape" of your data, self-DOS attacks (no joke - Google almost brought down itself by having an img with an empty src tag, which forces the browser to make a duplicate request on every page) which result in extra duplicate requests, incorrectly filtering requests so you count /favicon.ico as a pageview, etc.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#133
post #110

I think this field is suffering from some confusion of terminology. In my mind there are three subfields that are crystallizing that each have different goals and thus different methods. The first one is Data Science. More and more businesses store their data electronically. Data Scientists aim to analyze this data to derive insights from it. Machine Learning is one of the tools in their tool belt, however often they…

It's also suffering from hype. And the criticism you note isn't one-directional in the field at large. I'm finding that ML/AI researchers deriding ML/Data engineers and "scientists" as not doing "real" ML or AI is becoming a thing, similar to how some computer scientists deride engineering as not doing real computing.

I hate this. Remember they did it to Michael Faraday in 1813, deriding him as not a real scientist as he was about to play a part in advancing one of the greatest challenges of mankind (unification).

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#134
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stereo vision is obviously highly effective in biology as it has independently evolved a great many times. Time-of-flight may be poised for a renaissance, but it scales badly and is active, not passive. Stereo vision, and its big brother light fields, are far more general and are certainly not going to "die out".

Yet humans produce terrible depth data.

What does it mean? I'd say the ability to perceive depth is pretty useful.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#135
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stereo vision is obviously highly effective in biology as it has independently evolved a great many times. Time-of-flight may be poised for a renaissance, but it scales badly and is active, not passive. Stereo vision, and its big brother light fields, are far more general and are certainly not going to "die out".

Yet humans produce terrible depth data.

Terrible for what purpose? Humans seem pretty good at throwing things to each other and catching them. I'm very bad at coming up with a good numeric estimate of linear size. As a fencer, I could never tell you how many inches between me and my opponent, how long his or my arms are, how tall he is, etc. I could definitely tell you which parts of our bodies are within reach of each other's arm extension, fleche, lunge, etc.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#136
I think what we're seeing is an explosion of new approaches to computerized problem solving made possible by huge amounts of data and enormous computing resources. A lot of what has become possible in the last couple of decades is indeed new, but the apparent rapid advance is really just a matter of applying the brute force of a massively upgraded ability to process huge quantities of data in parallel, and this has led us to make erroneous assumptions about future progress in these areas.

Basically, these are new solutions to new problems, and we're rapidly seeing the easy 80% of this new generation of "AI" happen and it seems magical. But soon enough we'll hit the wall where further progress becomes harder and harder and brute force approaches are no longer sufficient to achieve interesting results.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#137

I've read every comment in this thread and its filled mostly with peoples self congratulatory intellectual views. Nobody, not even Robin Hansen himself has given a good, detailed argument as to why the current progress in Machine learning will stop.

It's because that's just how things always work. Have you ever played one of those strategy games with a tech tree? Research A and it lets you research B, C, and D; research C and D and it lets you research E; etc? That's based on the way discoveries in the real world build on eachother. And in the real world, the research tree seems to be "lumpy". Think "agricultural revolution", "industrial revolution", etc. Someth…

> Right now we're in the "low-hanging fruit" phase of (1) computers that are powerful enough to run neural networks, combined with (2) feedback algorithms that allow networks with lots of layers to learn effectively.

I'm not so sure about that. Places like Deepmind are not satisfied with simply having AI that does straight forward pattern matching problems (Though that's very important). They are moving into more complex problems like transfer learning, reinforcement learning and unsupervised learning for more complex, real world problems solving. They also seem to be making good progress on this as well.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#138
post #110

I think this field is suffering from some confusion of terminology. In my mind there are three subfields that are crystallizing that each have different goals and thus different methods. The first one is Data Science. More and more businesses store their data electronically. Data Scientists aim to analyze this data to derive insights from it. Machine Learning is one of the tools in their tool belt, however often they…

It's also suffering from hype. And the criticism you note isn't one-directional in the field at large. I'm finding that ML/AI researchers deriding ML/Data engineers and "scientists" as not doing "real" ML or AI is becoming a thing, similar to how some computer scientists deride engineering as not doing real computing.

It is not suffering from hype. There is too little hype. People are vastly underestimating what is about to happen.

See my comments here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13079598

under our recent article " Artificial Intelligence Generates Christmas Song".

Basically, if there is no pixie dust that makes humans intelligent, and instead it is a matter of the architecture of the brain and the first few years of supervised sensory input, then neural net breakthroughs (which use a similar architecture/topology) have the potential at any moment in time to break through and match general human intelligence.

What I mean is that if someone sent back source code from 80 years from now, but we had to run it on a bunch of Amazon / Google servers in a server farm, we're pretty much guaranteed to have enough computing power to do so!

(This is a combination of the number of neurons, their number of connections, and their very slow speed.)

We have the hardware.

Now: we do not actually have the source code from 80 years from now that we can go ahead and run on those machines.

So, we're at like heavier-than-air travel right before the Wright Brothers flew at Kittie Hawk. Except we have like jet engines already -- just no way to design them into something that flies.

I think that AI is vastly underrated and I watch with incredible interest every single breakthrough.

For the second category above, ML built into products or engineering solutions, Alphago surprised me, because Go had an intractibly large possibility space, it's not in any sense subject to brute-forcing or exhaustive search.

Dragon's Natural dictation surprised me in that using its model its able to get basically perfect dictation. I've never worked as a transcriptionist, but a small search reveals it has basically annihilated the industry of medical transcription.

These are not the big, general breakthrough.

But the big, general breakthrough is right there, somewhere. The results researchers are coming up with are astounding, and they're doing it in many cases with neural nets, quite similar to the wiring of the human mind.

The hype is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar less than warranted for the stage that we're at. At any moment someone can put together something that achieves higher-level intelligence and can be set loose upon the world corpus of culture.

True, there are no clear indications that this is about to happen (For example: people do not extract innate language algorithms from the human genome which encodes them), so we are not exactly taking many steps that we could be trying to. As far as I know we're not even genetically engineering people to see what different parts of DNA do -- which is obviously a very, very good thing, and who would allow anyone to bear to term a child made as an experiment to see what DNA does.

But despite not going from a human starting point, the results that we are achieving in many cases match and surpass human ability - while we do know that in many cases some of their architecture is similar. I feel quite strongly that we have more than enough hardware for general intelligence - and I see advances every day that could end up going past the ppint of no return on it.

--

EDIT: got a downvote, but I would prefer a discussion if you think I'm wrong.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#139
post #39
post #11

When I was at Watson this is the first thing I told every customer: before you start with AI are you already doing the more mundane data science on your structured data? If not, you shouldn't go right away for the shiny object. This said I still believe the article is mistaken in its evaluation of potential impact (and its fuzzy metaphore of pipes). Unstructured or semi-structured or dirty data is much more prevalent…

And before you do mundane data science on your structured data, you should figure out if there is a better way to get cleaner raw data, more data, as well as more accurate data. For example, I predict stereo vision algorithms will die out soon, including deep-learning-assisted stereo vision. It's useful for now but not something to build a business around. Better time-of-flight depth cameras will be here soon enough.…

>Better time-of-flight depth cameras will be here soon enough. It's just basic physics. I worked on one for my PhD research. You can get pretty clean depth data with some basic statistics and no AI algorithm wizardry. We're just waiting for someone to take it to a fab, build driver electronics, and commercialize it.

You should talk to us at Leaflabs. Commercializing research-level tech in embedded electronics is what we do.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#140
post #39
post #11

When I was at Watson this is the first thing I told every customer: before you start with AI are you already doing the more mundane data science on your structured data? If not, you shouldn't go right away for the shiny object. This said I still believe the article is mistaken in its evaluation of potential impact (and its fuzzy metaphore of pipes). Unstructured or semi-structured or dirty data is much more prevalent…

And before you do mundane data science on your structured data, you should figure out if there is a better way to get cleaner raw data, more data, as well as more accurate data. For example, I predict stereo vision algorithms will die out soon, including deep-learning-assisted stereo vision. It's useful for now but not something to build a business around. Better time-of-flight depth cameras will be here soon enough.…

However as ma2rten eloquently describes, for the purpose of AI research it might be beneficial to bite through the harder AI required when only having access to stereo vision.

A lot of problems are not tackled on a fundamental level. Occlusion, context, proprioception, prediction, timing, attention, saliency, etc.

A simple rat has more intelligence than whatever is behind a dashcam, security cam or webcam.

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