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Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

quantamagazine.org

11–20 of 86 posts

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#11

> "The whole state of system-plus-clock doesn’t change in time" How is this different from the classical view of the universe as deterministic? In a Newtonian universe, all future states can be determined from the current state, so the universe can be seen as a "frozen" 4-dimensional object.

The article's a bit scattered but its central theme seems to be the Problem of Time.

There's a wikipedia article on that, of course, and it's not so bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_time

The structure of the the paragraph you quoted and the one following it is similar to the first two long paragraphs under the "Proposed solutions to the problem of time" section of the wikipedia article.

There is a bit more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_quantum_gravity#The_...

and a technical overview in the first section of https://arxiv.org/abs/1009.2157

I wrote "seems", because I found it hard to focus on an article whose second paragraph is a grotesque of General Relativity and in subsequent paragraphs brings in a not especially clearly related set of links to the author's previous articles on the recent Verlinde paper on emergent gravity and the amplituhedron, among others. :-(

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The universe as a simulation is one of those ideas that sound interesting at first but are actually pretty useless the longer you think about them. There is for example also solipsism, the idea that only you exist and the rest of the world is just in your mind, or Last Thursdayism, the idea that the world came into existence last Thursday with all our minds filled with fake memories of the time before last Thursday.…

I don't think universe as a simulation is epistemologically equivalent to solipsism or this "Last Thursdayism" thing (love the name, by the way). Solipsism is meaningless. What it means to say that there is nothing outside of your mind? Surely you can't predict or control what is going to happen to your experience, so how can you say that everything is "inside" your mind? what that even means? And if you are a solips…

> Solipsism is meaningless

Not in all contexts. A healthy dose of solipsism is a good thing - in the sense of it giving us some means of defense against what one could call "reality hypnosis", which is giving too much significance to the status quo, i.e. to what is happening (at present). Reality, too, can be "meaningless", and once that has been realized, it often turns out that changing it is not that difficult.

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#13
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The universe as a simulation is one of those ideas that sound interesting at first but are actually pretty useless the longer you think about them. There is for example also solipsism, the idea that only you exist and the rest of the world is just in your mind, or Last Thursdayism, the idea that the world came into existence last Thursday with all our minds filled with fake memories of the time before last Thursday.…

I don't think universe as a simulation is epistemologically equivalent to solipsism or this "Last Thursdayism" thing (love the name, by the way). Solipsism is meaningless. What it means to say that there is nothing outside of your mind? Surely you can't predict or control what is going to happen to your experience, so how can you say that everything is "inside" your mind? what that even means? And if you are a solips…

I would argue that solipsism and a universe simulation are actually very close. You observe x and it might be A or B but you have no ground truth on what A or B looks like or how to distinguish them.

In case of solipsism you experience a universe around you but there seems to be nothing you could use to decide whether you are experiencing an independent outside universe through your senses or whether your mind is just hallucinating this whole outside universe.

In case of the universe simulation you experience a universe around you but you have no a priori knowledge what a real universe and what a simulation of a universe is supposed to look like, you seem to be stuck in more or less the same place as with solipsism.

You should start to associate causation to patterns in your experience, and observe carefully that patterns. Those patterns behaviour are not decided by you, so, by definition, they are outside your mind.

I think mind is probably not the right word here because it has the connotation of control, brain might be the better choice because there are things going on you can not control (ignoring whether you actually have any control to begin with). It may have not been clear from my first comment, but I was especially referring to metaphysical solipsism, denying the existence of an independent outer reality.

Simulation argument has serious experimental issues, but I would not discard it yet. Maybe we can think of something.

Personally I just don't think about it for the moment. There is surely the possibility that we make progress one way or another, but every time I try thinking about it, it leads nowhere. Maybe one day we discover the fundamental laws of physics, logical self-consistent and the only self-consistent laws of physics possible. With mathematical proof. Do we now know that our universe is real, it is after all nothing less than the only way it could ever have been?

Or did the simulator just mess with us again? We could be using inconsistent logic all day long, writing wrong mathematical proofs and be teaching them to the next generation in our universities. But just before someone realizes the error, just after we observed the contradicting consequences of our wrong reasoning, the simulator erases the relevant memory and life goes on as if nothing happened.

Unless somebody wants you to find out, you will never find out. The potential enemy in this scenario is just so powerful, you can not win.

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#14
post #6
post #5

Reading this made me think of the question of whether our universe is actually a simulation.

The universe as a simulation is one of those ideas that sound interesting at first but are actually pretty useless the longer you think about them. There is for example also solipsism, the idea that only you exist and the rest of the world is just in your mind, or Last Thursdayism, the idea that the world came into existence last Thursday with all our minds filled with fake memories of the time before last Thursday.…

The difficulty I have with the "universe as a simulation" hypothesis is that it pre-supposes a fundamental difference between simulation and reality, which I strongly suspect is not the case. Everything we have observed about our physical reality indicates that it is 1) composed of mathematical structures and 2) it is computable.

Given these characteristics it is clear that the universe we experience could be executed by any system capable of computation [Universal Raspberry Pi if you will :)]. As such, it is highly likely (almost a certainty) that whatever more foundational reality exists outside of our experience it is very different than ours and is responsible for the computational effort that generates the universe we experience. Given that any physical system is capable of computation when properly organized one could easily imagine a higher dimensional structure that did not require an intelligent being to build it that just "happens" to compute this reality.

Would that be considered a "simulation"? Or is a simulation something that requires an intelligent being to build it? Obviously this turns into a bit of semantics.

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#15
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think universe as a simulation is epistemologically equivalent to solipsism or this "Last Thursdayism" thing (love the name, by the way). Solipsism is meaningless. What it means to say that there is nothing outside of your mind? Surely you can't predict or control what is going to happen to your experience, so how can you say that everything is "inside" your mind? what that even means? And if you are a solips…

I would argue that solipsism and a universe simulation are actually very close. You observe x and it might be A or B but you have no ground truth on what A or B looks like or how to distinguish them. In case of solipsism you experience a universe around you but there seems to be nothing you could use to decide whether you are experiencing an independent outside universe through your senses or whether your mind is jus…

"I would argue that solipsism and a universe simulation are actually very close."

I agree with you that from the point of view of testability both are very similar, but, in my view, from the point of view of logic reasoning are almost the opposite.

Solipsism is just bad reasoning or, at most, a semantic trick: I define my mind as everything there is out there, so, obviously, everything is in my mind. But we have science, precisely, to try to understand what it is out there, and "out there" means outside of our minds.

On the other hand, you arrive to the simulation argument by deduction. That's what, testability apart, make it interesting. The reasoning is: if a simulation is possible, then, many are possible. If there are many simulations in the universe, what is more probable? to be in the universe or in a simulation?

I agree that we don't know what to do with that, but you have to recognize that it's a damn good trick of logic.

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#16
I have a question as a non physics/math person:

We assume that light speed is a constant, but we also know that speed is measured as distance/time. We know that in the presence of high gravity (or proximity to very high mass), or very high speed, we experience time dilation, and that perspective and location matters WRT actual time.

So, how do we assume that light speed is constant? Does the distance moved change relative to the proximity to mass, and the time unit vary in value as well? If not, do we just assume that the lack of proximity to mass in between galaxies doesn't change the behavior of light when we say that the proximity to black holes does?

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The universe as a simulation is one of those ideas that sound interesting at first but are actually pretty useless the longer you think about them. There is for example also solipsism, the idea that only you exist and the rest of the world is just in your mind, or Last Thursdayism, the idea that the world came into existence last Thursday with all our minds filled with fake memories of the time before last Thursday.…

I don't think universe as a simulation is epistemologically equivalent to solipsism or this "Last Thursdayism" thing (love the name, by the way). Solipsism is meaningless. What it means to say that there is nothing outside of your mind? Surely you can't predict or control what is going to happen to your experience, so how can you say that everything is "inside" your mind? what that even means? And if you are a solips…

"Experimental" is a key here which distinguishes the simulation hypothesis. There are two things we can do:

1. attempt to create a simulated universe 2. make predictions about our universe based on the hypotheis

I would not rule either of these out as futile.

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#18
post #6
post #5

Reading this made me think of the question of whether our universe is actually a simulation.

The universe as a simulation is one of those ideas that sound interesting at first but are actually pretty useless the longer you think about them. There is for example also solipsism, the idea that only you exist and the rest of the world is just in your mind, or Last Thursdayism, the idea that the world came into existence last Thursday with all our minds filled with fake memories of the time before last Thursday.…

The idea that the universe is a simulation is just a different way to express the religious impulse.

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#19
post #16

I have a question as a non physics/math person: We assume that light speed is a constant, but we also know that speed is measured as distance/time. We know that in the presence of high gravity (or proximity to very high mass), or very high speed, we experience time dilation, and that perspective and location matters WRT actual time. So, how do we assume that light speed is constant? Does the distance moved change rel…

It's constant within a given frame of reference.

Re: Quantum Gravity’s Time Problem

#20
post #19
post #16

I have a question as a non physics/math person: We assume that light speed is a constant, but we also know that speed is measured as distance/time. We know that in the presence of high gravity (or proximity to very high mass), or very high speed, we experience time dilation, and that perspective and location matters WRT actual time. So, how do we assume that light speed is constant? Does the distance moved change rel…

It's constant within a given frame of reference .

So, really it isn't a universal constant, then? I guess the makes sense.

Sub question - if photons are light particles, moving at the speed of light, then do they actually experience time dilation themselves? i.e. from the frame of reference of the photon, is the local time for the photon ticking away in one frame, while the outside world appears to move much much faster? Or, relative to us is time on the photon moving very slowly?

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