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Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

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Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#91

Post by mullen »

mindcrime wrote: post #19

The solution to this is obvious: eliminate the IRS. And the income tax. And most of the federal government. Spin off the actually useful bits as private non-profit foundations (or possibly even for-profit companies depending on the scenario) and let them earn their own keep based on the value they provide. A sufficiently small government can be funded without an income tax, as history shows us.

> A sufficiently small government can be funded without an income tax, as history shows us.

Oh ya? Name one.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#93

Post by ceejay »

smokeyj wrote: post #68
ceejay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There appears to be some merit to what you're proposing. But what about long-term issues, such as climate change, etc. How are a group of people going to convince a large enough group to pay money for it, and who is going to enforce it? Also, things that don't affect majority of people will probably never get enough funding. For example blindness. How many blind people do you know? And do you think anyone is going to…

OP was making a principled stance for a more direct democracy. When you argue against a more direct democracy, doesn't that make you scratch your chin and wonder if you really support democracy at all? Do you really support your fellow man and his pursuit of happiness, or do you know what's best for him and wish to dictate how he lives. Based on what you wrote, you don't support democracy at all - which may possibly…

I guess I see things in shades of grey, not black and white.

I think dogmatic positions are almost always wrong :)

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#94

Post by lacampbell »

oelmekki wrote: post #27
delegate wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes. It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries. The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects. You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running thi…

I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"? That's the only reason I can think of which would make it possible for charities to fit government action scale. Also, I wonder how local non profit organize against a nation wide invasion (not saying it's impossible, but you have to prepare for it, which costs money). I live in a country wh…

I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"? That's the only reason I can think of which would make it possible for charities to fit government action scale.

I think this is very erroneous thinking. Just because a government currently does something, does not mean it cannot be done any other way. Nor does it mean someone against income tax is in favour of it not being done at all.

Imagine if someone proposed nationalising all food production to you, and you recoiled in horror, then they accused you of being OK seeing people starve on the street. It's dishonest.

What I'm not ok with is having people who use what we all pay for, then try to not pay for their part by evading taxes.

The very richest people do not pay income tax proportional to their wealth. The progressive taxation system is largely a myth - when you are very rich you have the means to find ways around byzantine tax rules and you will tend to tie up your wealth in assets.

If taxes is a problem for you, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of countries where you can move and that you will find adequate.

You could literally say that about anything a government does. If you don't like being sent to gulags, I am sure you can leave North Korea, etc etc. It's not much of an argument.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#95

Post by enraged_camel »

wav-part wrote: post #77
enraged_camel wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>As long as taxation is practiced the way it is here in the US (eg, enforced at the end of a gun barrel) it's theft How so? The government is collecting the money you owe them. And you owe them money because every single day you use and benefit from things the government has funded, such as as infrastructure, police protection, fire protection, military protection and much, much more. It's true that there is no way…

Then give me exact amount I owe ? Why does it have anything to do with my Income ? Do you pay 5% for your iPhone ? Why is police protection any different ? Why am I not allowed to opt-out of it ? Admit it. Its socially-excepted extortion from successful where people always increasing welfare spending. I dont know why anyone have to demonize anyone. People are looking after their own self-interest. And successful afte…

You can't pay an exact amount because we literally have no way to calculate such an amount. How do you calculate usage for police, fire, military protection? How do you calculate the monetary value of being surrounded by educated people (which is what part of your taxes pay for)? You can't.

We do have usage-based taxes for things where we can calculate the usage relatively easily, such as tolls for roads. A lot of other things however have to come from your income, because that's the easiest method that, believe it or not, requires the least bureaucracy.

P.S. You can't opt out of police protection because... how would that work exactly?

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#96

Post by lacampbell »

enraged_camel wrote: post #53
mindcrime wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ok with paying taxes for those. Your being OK with taxes is completely irrelevant to anything outside of yourself. As long as taxation is practiced the way it is here in the US (eg, enforced at the end of a gun barrel) it's theft, and it's immoral, no matter how noble the purported objective(s). Eliminating taxation does not, however, preclude the idea of voluntary, collective funding for important causes, includ…

>>As long as taxation is practiced the way it is here in the US (eg, enforced at the end of a gun barrel) it's theft How so? The government is collecting the money you owe them. And you owe them money because every single day you use and benefit from things the government has funded, such as as infrastructure, police protection, fire protection, military protection and much, much more. It's true that there is no way…

How so? The government is collecting the money you owe them. And you owe them money because every single day you use and benefit from things the government has funded, such as as infrastructure, police protection, fire protection, military protection and much, much more.

Much much more... like launching invasions on other countries, giving policemen paid leave after committing brutalities, bailing out mega corporations, providing jobs it's near impossible to be fired from with no incentive for hard work...

The state is structured in such a way that you can't help but use what they provide. That doesn't constitute any kind of consent. If a cartel occupies your area, demands protection money, and provides some services - they are still a cartel.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#97

Post by pc86 »

tyingq wrote: post #63
paulsutter wrote: post #18

You can't omit Bitcoin transactions from your tax return just because they seem anonymous. Concealment is the very definition of tax evasion, "Evasion... involves deceit, subterfuge, camouflage, concealment, some attempt to color or obscure events or to make things seem other than they are" Quoting in full since its among the most misunderstood yet important distinctions in tax: http://www.irs.gov/irm/part9/irm_09-00…

>You can't omit Bitcoin transactions from your tax return just because they seem anonymous I agree if this is trading, where there are net gains (or losses) from fluctuations in value. I assume, though, that a notable number of bitcoin transactions are just buying and/or selling merchandise. Buyers convert existing money that's already reported to the IRS (like their salary) into bitcoin, and buy something. Sellers g…

In both of the above cases isn't it trivially easy to prove the income was already taxed?

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#98

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee »

tyingq wrote: post #63
paulsutter wrote: post #18

You can't omit Bitcoin transactions from your tax return just because they seem anonymous. Concealment is the very definition of tax evasion, "Evasion... involves deceit, subterfuge, camouflage, concealment, some attempt to color or obscure events or to make things seem other than they are" Quoting in full since its among the most misunderstood yet important distinctions in tax: http://www.irs.gov/irm/part9/irm_09-00…

>You can't omit Bitcoin transactions from your tax return just because they seem anonymous I agree if this is trading, where there are net gains (or losses) from fluctuations in value. I assume, though, that a notable number of bitcoin transactions are just buying and/or selling merchandise. Buyers convert existing money that's already reported to the IRS (like their salary) into bitcoin, and buy something. Sellers g…

Yep, this is how I use Coinbase. So it's pretty annoying to be automatically lumped in with this.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#99

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee »

ryaniscool wrote: post #36
jrockway wrote: post #31

Oh good, another list I'm on. I'm going to have to start making a list of the lists. Bitcoin seems obviously like money to me. But I wonder when the IRS is going to start cracking down on other electronic money you can earn. Think about computer games where you can buy credits, or earn them by playing. That sounds like income tax evasion to me; you're getting paid in Green Rupees instead of US Dollars, but you should…

In the linked article, the IRS is quoted as saying they are treating BitCoin like property. Essentially, they are looking to tax people who made a profit from selling Bitcoins using Coinbase. They don't seem concerned with the currency aspect at all.

How do you distinguish between someone buying something with Bitcoin and someone "trading" it? I only buy things with Bitcoin, I'm not doing currency trading (or at least, that was not my intention!).

It seems like they could have isolated this request down to heavy buy/sell activity where it doesn't look like people are simply buying things. I'm fine with them going after people evading taxes, but this seems like a wide net to cast.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#100

Post by paulsutter »

justin66 wrote: post #61
paulsutter wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but example taxable transactions might be to sell bitcoins for a gain, or to use appreciated bitcoins in a barter transaction. Losses are also taxable transactions, but in a good way. Mining is awkward, since I believe mined coins are taxed as income on the day they are mined, even if you don't transact. Best to talk to an accountant, of course, and not rely on the advice of a random HN commenter like me.

> Mining is awkward, since I believe mined coins are taxed as income on the day they are mined, even if you don't transact. The IRS has indicated that bitcoins are property and taxed as such, so that seems unlikely. Do you have a source for this?

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf
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