Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#91

Post by kartan » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:41 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #9

kalleboo wrote: post #3

So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me. For context, the taxi regulation in Sweden is very light. There is no medallion system limiting the number of cars, and no regulation of prices. You just need an extended driver's license, an approved taxi-meter (same as how grocery stores need their scales to be approved…

"So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me." I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous. If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws . Ostensibly, this is about a specific issue - distance travelled and the lack of abi…

> They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.

http://www.technologist.eu/sweden-the-land-of-unicorns/

Neo-liberalism has gone too far. Anything that limits the company power to do everything is seen as "anti-business". It is not like that, good rules improve fair competition. That rules can hurt ONE or a FEW companies while creating a more healthy system that benefits the rest of companies and citizens.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#92

Post by zzzzzzzzzman » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

Numberwang wrote: post #52

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

"One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group refuses to give up one of his bananas. How is this refusal equal to stealing?" This is the most American and the most stupid thing I've read on HN. It's almost pop art.

I hope my POV can serve as a piece of history some day then :)

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#93

Post by krisroadruck » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #58

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

Because there's no way to opt-out of the benefits of a well-educated, well-protected society with good infrastructure. If we could send everyone who wants to opt out of taxes to some island somewhere, we would.

And if you could allow them to leave without taxing them 50% of their wealth on the way out the door, a lot of them would go. You pretty much hit the nail on the head in 2 directions. People are not given the option to vote with thier feet or their dollars. I know I wont ever need social security (if it even still exists by the time I want to stop making money) and yet I can not opt out of it. Why? The reason why is I'm not paying into my own retirement at all, I'm funding someone elses. I'd even happily give up everything I've already paid in if I could just stop paying in the future.

Also this notion of a well protected society is total bunk. I could have paid $50K in taxes last year as a self employed guy, but if my business collapses this year and I don't have a wife or children there is no safety net for me. The government isn't going to swoop in and pay for my rent and bills while I get back on my feet. Something I could have easily accomplished for myself with those same $50K. The federal safety net pretty much excludes childless single men entirely.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#94

Post by kuschku » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

daemin wrote: post #85

My take on the whole Uber vs Taxis thing is much more about just convenience and user experience. If the taxis got together and created an app that you could hail a taxi, track its progress, and follow it to your destination, and take the payment automatically, there would have been no (or far less) need of Uber. I have had several experiences where I called for a taxi, but none arrived. Then I went to the main road…

> If the taxis got together and created an app that you could hail a taxi, track its progress, and follow it to your destination, and take the payment automatically, there would have been no (or far less) need of Uber.

They did. Before Uber even existed.

Check out http://www.taxi.eu/en/

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#95

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

3poundkilograms wrote: post #50

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

One monkey says to a group of other monkeys: "We all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have to feed the doctor monkey, the asphalt monkey and the teacher monkey, from whom we receive services." One monkey from the group, which just came back in his car from the doctor monkey with his daughter that goes to the local monkey school: "I refuse to give up my bananas!". Remember context. Full context is imp…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#96

Post by zzzzzzzzzman » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

denom wrote: post #48

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

When the banana production facility is predicated on the collective effort and value that all of the monkeys provide, then refusing to pay taxes is tantamount to sealing from the society. Since the society provides for the common good, including the production of bananas, it follows that the individuals must honor and provide for that social function--which in the end serves _them_.

I appreciate your POV, but why is this monkey not able to produce his own bananas from the trees and the soil?

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#97

Post by __jal » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #9

kalleboo wrote: post #3

So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me. For context, the taxi regulation in Sweden is very light. There is no medallion system limiting the number of cars, and no regulation of prices. You just need an extended driver's license, an approved taxi-meter (same as how grocery stores need their scales to be approved…

"So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me." I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous. If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws . Ostensibly, this is about a specific issue - distance travelled and the lack of abi…

> 1) They are super, super aggressive when it comes to tax things. Cheating on taxes is worse than some major crimes!

Yes. It is seen as freeloading. Which, in fact, it is[1].

> 2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.

That is simply ridiculous, unless you want to define a recognition that externalities are a thing as 'anti-business'. Or put another way, what exactly is it about the profit motive that transforms bad behavior into good behavior? (You may define 'bad behavior' differently, but that's a different question.)

A friend who lives in Sweden, and has spent several years living in the U.S. put it well. Americans are weirdly uptight about sex, believing that public acknowledgment that humans like rutting at least as much as other animals somehow poisons the commons. Swedes are weirdly uptight about preservation of the commons itself.

It isn't anti-business to recognize that commercial activities, like any other activities, effect others in potentially good and bad ways. Every first-world country does. Nordic countries generally value the social norms and structures they've built more than they value enabling the scraping every possible niche for profit.

[1] You may not like the bundle of services provided, but the obligation exists. That's how government works, at least until someone builds that infinite-land machine. I'm really not in the mood for a rerun of Net.libertarians vs. Rousseau, so won't respond to that argument.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#98

Post by mr_blobs » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

3poundkilograms wrote: post #50

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

One monkey says to a group of other monkeys: "We all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have to feed the doctor monkey, the asphalt monkey and the teacher monkey, from whom we receive services." One monkey from the group, which just came back in his car from the doctor monkey with his daughter that goes to the local monkey school: "I refuse to give up my bananas!". Remember context. Full context is imp…

Reality is more like:

2 out of 10 monkeys spend all their waking hours sacrificing and working so their children can have more than 1 banana and then give 15 out of the 20 bananas they earn to the group.

The majority of monkeys in the group gives 0 bananas, but continue to say that the ones that do give the most aren't paying their fair share (and need to give even more).

They then have many discussions on how they can force the other monkeys to give the rest of the group even more bananas, rather than putting energy into earning their own.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#99

Post by justinator » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:45 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #58

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

Because there's no way to opt-out of the benefits of a well-educated, well-protected society with good infrastructure. If we could send everyone who wants to opt out of taxes to some island somewhere, we would.

And if this monkey could emigrate to Sweden tomorrow and pay much higher taxes for much more collective benefits, you bet my monkey tail I would.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#100

Post by Bartweiss » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:45 PM UTC

aedron wrote: post #18

shocks wrote: post #4

Stockholm is full of 'fake' taxis that take you longer routes and charge you more money. I'd much rather use Uber.

I would use any taxi company that charged me the price up front, paid through the app, calculated based on distance from source to destination and some heuristics about time-of-day, time-of-year, etc. The driver would be incentivized to get you to your destination quickly and there wouldn't be that awkward tension about whether the guy is taking the best route, driving too slow or whatever. Even if they occasionally…

I feel like the discussions of what Uber does undervalue this. Medallion systems are silly, Uber is using some shady legal arguments, etc, fine. But the actual taxi experience is often terrible.

Last time I took an actual taxi in a new town, the driver spoke next to no English, misunderstood my destination, and got lost 3 times. He tried to drop me off in the middle of the woods because his outdated Garmin told him to. He then tried to charge me ~$80 because of all the bizarre detours, demanded cash instead of a credit card (at the end), and tried to follow me when I objected.

That's exceptional, yeah, but not hugely so. Uber's biggest value to me is the guarantee that the driver will have clear directions, not try to change route, take a credit card, and otherwise not scam me. The cab industry in a lot of places is really corrupt compared to other businesses.