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People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

bbc.co.uk

21–30 of 131 posts

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#21
post #6

Tyler Technologies acknowledged in a statement that the upgrade process had been “challenging” - but said poor training was to blame for bad inputting of data and integration with third-party applications that often introduce glitches into the system. People writing software need to take responsibility for how the software is used, especially when it can impact people's lives to this degree. You can't just blame thir…

> People writing software need to take responsibility for how the software is used

There is an old joke that it's almost impossible to get someone to understand a problem that would result in a threat to their livliehood.

I don't think people need to "take responsibility" I think organisations need to be made to take responsibility.

In the UK when you purchase a physical good from the retailer the warranty for that good is between you and the retailer, the retailer then has to deal with problems up the line from suppliers, it's not perfect but it's workable.

I think software should be the same, I think if I pay Foo for a system then Foo should be responsible for the system even if it's made of parts from Bar, Fizz and Buzz, if Foo has an issue with Fizz they need to take it up with Fizz.

There is so much crap software out there in every field and the acceleration towards a world run on software continues.

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#22
> The software, created by Texas-based Tyler Technologies, costs about $5m (£4m) and is set to gradually replace a decades-old e-filing system that looks like something a hacker would use in a Hollywood movie.

> Tyler Technologies acknowledged in a statement that the upgrade process had been “challenging” - but said poor training was to blame for bad inputting of data and integration with third-party applications that often introduce glitches into the system.

Even as someone who spends the majority of the day at the command prompt, I agree we should always be attentive to user-interface issues. But I've been less than optimistic that people will have the wisdom to know that a new "modern" interface automatically means it's more sophisticated/elegant, or that it's more attuned to the needs of human users.

In particular, it's been alarming to see a rise in unnecessary use of AJAX (nevermind Angular) in government applications. I'm not anti-JS, it's just that client-end development seems to have far more moving parts of the kind that don't get well-tested by workers in a bureaucracy. Especially when that work has been farmed out.

edit: as an example of how government can do modern web-dev/UX well, I can think of no better (at least at the U.S. federal level) example than the CFPB: https://cfpb.github.io/

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#23
> However, this must be a co-operative process. A project’s success is contingent on both parties  -  the jurisdiction and the software provider - working co-operatively together.

> “We have reiterated our commitment to this approach to Alameda and continue to make ourselves available to them.”

Marketing speech for, "They don't even know how to ask us how bad we've fucked them."

Just look at their company page, I think it's clear whats going on here. California administration is not capable of spending money wisely and Texas firms are not capable of not ripping off someone who is dependent on them. It's almost like a company build on internships can't really deliver a product, only a hole where their product should be, then when you fall in it, there they are on the lip of the hole saying here's a shovel, dig yourself out.

It's a match made in capitalism-heaven.

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#24
post #6

Tyler Technologies acknowledged in a statement that the upgrade process had been “challenging” - but said poor training was to blame for bad inputting of data and integration with third-party applications that often introduce glitches into the system. People writing software need to take responsibility for how the software is used, especially when it can impact people's lives to this degree. You can't just blame thir…

I think that's a bit harsh without knowing whether the software vendor was allowed to be effectively involved in the training and integration efforts. Software like this depends on lots of processes around the rollout and usage being properly designed and executed, and the fact that the software is being used successfully in many places suggests that the vendor knows how to deploy the software safely. Whether they were complicit in not doing so in the case of Alameda County is the important question. Maybe the county ran out of money at the last minute and the vendor couldn't stop them from cutting corners on the rollout. Maybe the vendor doesn't think it's good customer relations to go public with the fact that they told the county over and over again that they were creating risks of errors like this. Maybe they even had stipulations in their contract to stop improper integrations from happening and the government ignored them or found a way around them.

Hopefully there will be an investigation and the people will find out who screwed up and why so they can be held accountable. It's tempting to say that everyone involved is "responsible" in some vague way, but that lets people off too easy. If everyone is guilty, then no one is guilty.

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#25
The headline is somewhat clickbaity and sensational.

Yes, it is bad that there are clerical errors in justice system.

But, if information is lost due to faulty software or user errors or even user error helped by bad UI design, it's still fundamentally just a clerical error. Those errors should be fixed and perhaps some people should be eligible for compensation for being mistreated due to error, but there is no sinister "software is putting people in jail" plan here. Just errors.

Embarrassing ones that should be fixed at a priority.

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#26

Software is currently in a strange place legislatively, in the 18th century Civil Engineering exploded (sometimes literally) and the number of disasters went up in radically (for an interesting case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_Bridge_disaster ), over time professional standards bodies grew alongside the maturing industry to both ensure that people working in the industry where adequately trained and adequately…

We need formal codes of practice, we need good institutions, but we also need a cultural change.

We no longer have the luxury of saying "oh, it's just a CRUD app, it doesn't matter if things go wrong". Software has become too important, it has become too deeply intertwined in our daily lives. Errors and leaks from trivial little apps can have life-changing consequences for users.

If your software handles personally identifying data, there's a non-zero chance that you could ruin someone's life through negligence. Legal case management software might be an obvious example, but it's the tip of a very big iceberg.

If you have several million users, one-in-a-million edge cases are going to happen constantly. Weird things happen at scale. We need to treat every Android permission and every Facebook API call as a potential matter of life or death. We need the personal courage and the support of our peers to say "no, I will not implement that feature", "no, I will not store that user data", "no, I will not transmit that in plaintext", "no, I will not commit that to production without unit testing".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#28

The headline is somewhat clickbaity and sensational. Yes, it is bad that there are clerical errors in justice system. But, if information is lost due to faulty software or user errors or even user error helped by bad UI design, it's still fundamentally just a clerical error. Those errors should be fixed and perhaps some people should be eligible for compensation for being mistreated due to error, but there is no sini…

The point here is perhaps that some errors are less forgivable than others.

May be in the field like this some extra care should be taken to ensure that, despite possible clerical errors, the data entered is sufficiently accurate. Technically that's likely extra checks and more thoughts about clearness of UI. "Just clerical error" doesn't sound like enough justification in cases like this - software should actively help to avoid those errors, and do enough of that help.

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#29

The problem with incorrect input and mistakes could be solved by entering the same data two times by two different people. It is probably not that expensive.

It could be reduced this way, agree. But if a particularly bad UI is used in both cases, I'd assume it's quite possible to have duplication of errors here too.

I don't think that's enough in all cases.

Re: People’s freedom jeopardised by new software adopted by California’s courts

#30
Working as intended. Will not fix. Errors lead to keeping the for-profit prison cells more fully occupied. Even if merely temporary occupants. It doesn't matter as long as cell vacancy remains low. Revenue depends on having prison cells occupied. This leads to higher profits, executive bonuses and shareholder value.
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