The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#41

Post by icanhackit » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #28

I'd be interested to know what possible commodity would be worth trading among star systems -- even if some star system has a planet made entirely of diamonds, surely it would take far less energy to made them here than to ship them between stars? Likewise, it seems that endless amounts of gold (platinum, rhodium, whatever) could be harvested from our own solar system before it's worth shipping here. Even if there's…

> what possible commodity would be worth trading among star systems

Apart from information which has been mentioned twice I'd say habitable and highly hospitable land (Earth-like planets) as well as access through or even ownership of territory. Space might be big but if we're limited by the speed of light then these things have immense value and still considerable value if we're somehow able to get around it.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#42

Post by dghughes » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 9:53 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #40

dghughes wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Information.

I doubt this. In fact I doubt the idea of interstellar trade. Beyond a certain point of post-scarcity, everything stops being scarce, including invention and innovation. We're already at that point with artefacts like music. Aliens could turn up tomorrow with centuries of unique music, and after the initial decade or five of novelty the music would end up as yet another playlist on Spotify, among countless others - s…

Maybe we would be so far behind they would find something lost to them hundreds of thousands of years ago.

It's funny you say music I've always thought every pop song has been made but then someone makes a new song that everyone loves.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#43

Post by icanhackit » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 9:53 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #40

dghughes wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Information.

I doubt this. In fact I doubt the idea of interstellar trade. Beyond a certain point of post-scarcity, everything stops being scarce, including invention and innovation. We're already at that point with artefacts like music. Aliens could turn up tomorrow with centuries of unique music, and after the initial decade or five of novelty the music would end up as yet another playlist on Spotify, among countless others - s…

> I doubt the idea of interstellar trade [...] Beyond a certain point of post-scarcity, everything stops being scarce, including invention and innovation.

Right but wouldn't you need interstellar trade to reach this milestone of post-scarcity? Otherwise you'd have to assume all forms of invention are achievable with the resources you start with.

Wouldn't game theory make you want to limit the resources and capabilities of your neighbor in case they try to do the same thing to you? So this idea of post-scarcity is never met because the uncertainties of attack from any number of other space-faring civilizations requires that you invest a significant chunk of your resources into your military. You could also have internal turmoil - the human race splits into distinct civilizations with different political, social and technological goals.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#44

Post by Johnny555 » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 10:26 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #31

Johnny555 wrote: post #28

I'd be interested to know what possible commodity would be worth trading among star systems -- even if some star system has a planet made entirely of diamonds, surely it would take far less energy to made them here than to ship them between stars? Likewise, it seems that endless amounts of gold (platinum, rhodium, whatever) could be harvested from our own solar system before it's worth shipping here. Even if there's…

Thinking in the very long term... energy? Though even that, it seems it'd be cheaper to transport the people to the energy than vice versa.

Every form of interstellar travel I'm aware of requires lots and lots of energy -- it seems hard to imagine a source of energy that's capable of being transported between star systems that's not dwarfed by the energy used to transport it.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#45

Post by bladedtoys » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 10:49 PM UTC

Fun article but, has figure II been lost to history?

If so then an better scanned version of the pdf should be the first thing we buy from a distant civilization.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#46

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 10:53 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #28

I'd be interested to know what possible commodity would be worth trading among star systems -- even if some star system has a planet made entirely of diamonds, surely it would take far less energy to made them here than to ship them between stars? Likewise, it seems that endless amounts of gold (platinum, rhodium, whatever) could be harvested from our own solar system before it's worth shipping here. Even if there's…

[deleted]

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#47

Post by uncletaco » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 11:14 PM UTC

careersuicide wrote: post #25

Any discussion of interstellar trade deserves a mention of the fantastic Charles Stross book "Neptune's Brood". I went into it expecting more or less a sequel to "Saturn's Children" but what I got was a treatise on monetary policy for economies that span multiple star systems. The concept of slow and fast money and its implications is utterly fascinating and the book is worth reading just for its explorations of the…

I loved that book. For the curious, the way interstellar trade works is through a simplified bitcoin network transmitted over light beams (because the only assets worth trading are digital). The biggest difference is each node in the network is actually a planet and a transaction between planet A and B is only confirmed when planet C validates the transaction. Planet C is usually decided on a nearest neighbor basis (If I recall correctly).

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#48

Post by ra1n85 » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 11:36 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #33

ra1n85 wrote: post #17

"By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's." -Paul Krugman Paul does not have the best track record.

exact quote: >"The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in 'Metcalfe's law'–which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants–becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's." Krugmans…

Not sure what you're trying to say here - that Krugman's words should not be considered seriously because "it was all in fun"? That he commented on a space in which he not qualified to do so "because someone told him to"?

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#49

Post by polymatter » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 12:18 AM UTC

mazelife wrote: post #16

mturmon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid, a local radio station would broadcast their summary of his "Golden Fleece Award" on their morning show. It was always a highlight to laugh at the "obvious" foolishness. As I have gotten older, the tables have turned, and my youthful easy laughs ring hollow. It's very easy to pull research out of context and laugh at it. It's very hard to do impactful research.

I fully agree with you on that. Pulling research out-of-context is still a go-to move by anti-science politicians [1]. Frankly, I'm half-tempted to track down that $84k study on why people fall in love. That's a fascinating topic that underpins so much of the human experience; more power to any scientist who thinks they can make heads or tails of it. [1] http://www.npr.org/2011/08/23/139852035/shrimp-on-a-treadmil...

I saved you the trouble. The author writes about how the Golden Fleece award affected her research (http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/the-golden-flee...). She receives at a lot of hate mail - some quite disturbing - and never again receives any more funding from NSF. However, she has had a prolific and distinguished career.

The paper in question is (http://www.elainehatfield.com/uploads/3/2/2/5/3225640/7._hat...) "A little bit about Love" by Hatfield, Elaine & Berscheid, Elaine (1974). It was "facilitated in part by NIMH grant MH 16661 and NSF grants GS 35157X and GS 30822X". It is mostly a review of scientific thinking of the topic at the time and is surprisingly readable and enlightening read.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#50

Post by nickjarboe » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 4:21 AM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #28

I'd be interested to know what possible commodity would be worth trading among star systems -- even if some star system has a planet made entirely of diamonds, surely it would take far less energy to made them here than to ship them between stars? Likewise, it seems that endless amounts of gold (platinum, rhodium, whatever) could be harvested from our own solar system before it's worth shipping here. Even if there's…

One time pads for encryption(Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep").