Live data from Hacker News

Thoughts on Flash

apple.com

441–450 of 522 posts

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#441
post #6

I love this. Apple clearly laid out their reasoning, using facts and persuasive argument. The world needs more of this. Obviously, there is some spin in the post, and I don't completely agree with 100% of it, but I love the level of discourse.

I think it's almost entirely bullshit and misdirection. 3.3.1 doesn't apply to specifically to Flash. "Open" is irrelevant. Apple is certainly no more open than Adobe. The Full Web - whatever. Don't support it in the browser, don't support browser plugins, fine. Safari on iPhone still crashes all the time. Reliability, security, performance - these are all things that apply to native apps built for the App Store, so…

>The truth is Apple doesn't want to be disintermediated. Apple wants developers to be strictly dependent on its tools and APIs, and not use anything between the app and the platform. This is particularly offensive to me as a software developer, and it's far worse than anything Microsoft has ever tried to pull. It's the reason why 3.3.1 is phrased the way it is, and it has nothing to do with Flash and everything to do with locking developers in.

Microsoft did the same thing with DirectX and OpenGL. OpenGL was cross-platform. Microsoft stopped supporting it, and instead insisted that developers use DirectX. This essentially killed cross-platform gaming for Mac/Linux. DirectX games port between Microsoft platforms and Microsoft's Console, but require significant middleware to port to OpenGL and non-Win32 platforms.

Use of an API, public and documented, is a form of dependence and lock-in. Apple has done. Microsoft does it. Oracle does it.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#442
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't lose sight of the issue. 3.3.1 is the issue, not "Flash on the iPhone". By reframing the argument as "Flash on the iPhone", you are succumbing to misdirection.

True enough. And Cocoa Touch is not an 'open standard.'

Jobs never said that Cocoa is an open standard. He just state that Flash is as proprietary as Cocoa Touch. Market share =! Open.

His point is that on the mobile web, HTML5 is open, not Flash.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you create a barebones cocoa touch app that basically just shows safari, and your app runs inside that as ja and HTML?

You could, but Apple are rejecting apps that are just web views or RSS readers so I wouldn't recommend it.

The point is that if you build your application correctly no one will even notice it's not a Cocoa app.

Take the iTunes App Store for instance. Nearly the entire application is a Webview, the AppKit equivalent of stuffing a Safari window into your application. It's all HTML (or an HTML-like markup language) and CSS. It's a little clunky sometimes but you can't say it doesn't "feel" like a real application just because it uses web technologies.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the Flash app linked to on the front page of theFWA that took 30 seconds to load and almost crashed Chrome on a late model Macbook Pro 17? Is that the kind of mobile experience you're after?

"almost crashed Chrome"?

Yeah man, you don't get that 'about to crash' feeling when you see the pinwheel in OS X?

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Jobs:] "we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open." Consider Python. Is it a standard? Yes, because there's an open source reference implementation. Does it pertain to the web? Yes it does, because http clients and servers can be, and often are, written in this language, and its standard library and 3rd-party open source libraries support http and other web protocols such as HTML.…

A reference implementation is a good test suite but a poor substitute for a standard. It's huge and you can't just sit down and read it, you have to simulate it in your head to really understand what it would allow or demand. (This is also an awful problem with the HTML5 spec.)

On the contrary, its a written standard that you "have to simulate in your head". If you have an implementation, you can simply run the code and see what it does!

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#446
post #416
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't appear to have pointed out any specific flaws in the argument against it. So you're not making an argument, just an unsupported assertion.

All I am saying is that Steve Jobs isn't putting all the facts on the table as they are. He is feeding the anti-Flash gang mob with half-truths. To say Flash is proprietary, possibly poorly executed format is a fair thing to say. To say it is completely without merit and has no place is a fallacy. HTML5 video is widely supported today . Flash might be a delivery vehicle for another unrealized idea tomorrow. And the "…

I have no issue with him shutting out something that really sucks today at the cost of potentially missing out on something awesome to do with it tomorrow. The awesome scenario just doesn't seem likely to come to pass. If tomorrow there's a completely great thing on the web that can only be done with flash, then I think Jobs is pragmatic enough to reevaluate.

But the fact that the main use for Flash on the web these days, beside video and unusable websites, are animated flash ads that use up 40% of my much more powerful Macbook Pro's CPU time means I'm in no hurry to have flash on the phone, openness dogma be damned. When Jobs limits my general purpose computers, I'll be angry, but until then, I'm glad he's making the tough design decisions instead of just letting the device be a free for all.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#447
post #268
post #137

I expect to have Flash available for my for droid soon, and for many of the reasons presented in this well articulated press release, i will not install it. The thought of having to wait till a useless flash Ad render on my mobile browser, without any ability to block them is reason enough not to have it on my phone. Unless Flash framework is completely revamped it will vanish to a place of old proprietary technologi…

If Flash never existed and HTML5 was king, what would flashing, animated, noisy advertisements be created in? Content is not the fault of the platform.

What if, is not the question here. What is, on other hand, is more relevant, and at present the most obnoxious experience of web advertising is via flash.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#448
Let's assume for the sake of argument that all of Steve's points are a smokescreen for what ultimately boils down to "Apple is in business to make money for Apple and Apple's shareholders, not to appease peers, developers, or even customers beyond the extent that they continue to give us their money, and anyone who stands in the way of what Apple believes to be its clearest path to profits can get bent." Why is that not okay?

I feel as if there's this weird assumption that Apple must make other considerations, that as the dominant player (for now) they have some obligation to make room for everyone at the table, lest they become evil, unsuccessful, or both. Why? What evidence do you have that Apple's exclusive culture and persnickety habits will result in anything but more money for shareholders, more opportunity for developers to put software in more pockets, and more sophisticated but accessible products being made available to more users?

I wrote far too much on the first pass, so I just excised a bunch, and here's the salient point: Apple didn't luck into this. They're not a clumsy giant who happened to end up with a market advantage despite themselves. They're in the position that they are because of the decisions they've made; they've deliberately created this reality for themselves. Apple doesn't wield authority over developers because tens of thousands of you decided to do Apple a solid and start writing iPhone OS Apps out of the goodness of your hearts. They managed, against really unfavorable odds and heavy competition from longstanding incumbents, to create what is arguably the best and indisputably the most successful device of its kind. Because they made decisions which resulted in that reality, should you choose to play by Apple's rules you have access to a large installed base of users—many of whom have indicated with their credit cards that they're willing to pay premium prices for premium products. I mean, how many normal humans do you know who would consider buying ANY software for a cell phone before the iPhone? I have many friends and acquaintances who have either told me outright or given the impression that they don't understand why one should need to purchase any software for their DESKTOPS beyond what comes bundled, yet each time I see them they have new paid apps installed on their iPhones. But, if you want access to them, you must play by Apple's rules. In the event that Apple adjusts 3.3.1 to state that developers must submit video evidence that they wore tricorn hats for the entire development process, if you want access to the users, you must play by Apple's rules.

You're free to determine that Apple's decisions of late are unsatisfactory to you, and that the potential business isn't worth the development time/unsavory feelings/brain cycles/whatever to play in Apple's game. But to imply that they have some obligation—moral or otherwise—to consider any interests but their own isn't just inaccurate, it's lunacy. Apple doing exactly whatever the hell they wanted is what created the marketplace to begin with.

An aside: I'm not super pleased that I have to post under this inane pseudonym, but I work for Apple Retail in the Family Room (One to One, Genius Bar, etc) and I'm prohibited from discussing Apple on the web. Yet another compromise I've made with Apple, but (for me) making decent money and having the opportunity to work with people I don't hate while I finish school is worth attempting to resist the temptation to be sucked into silly arguments on the internet...most of the time. In an attempt to preclude fanboy assumptions/accusations I will note one compromise I haven't made: I use an Android phone because I've had horrible experiences with AT&T in the past, and I refuse to pay them one red cent, though I still hold out hope that on one of these hardware revisions the iPhone will be made available on other carrier(s).

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#449
post #252

What he describes as the "most important reason" is also the big mistake here. If using certain libraries or cross-platform development tools truly did result in worse apps, then the market would take care of that. He also doesn't seem to understand that such tools do not all totally hide the underlying APIs. They fall along a continuum in that respect. And in trying to ban extreme cases like Flash, Apple has also ba…

I'm starting to suspect that Apple really requires proprietary APIs and decrepit languages for the same reasons Spolsky[1] once said Microsoft used proprietary and huge and ever-changing APIs. It's cover fire to make everyone else's projects soak up more hours, increasing the fraction of captive developers and shops who are only experienced in iPhone OS work, rather than being prepared for work on iPhone OS and other…

Why was this downvoted? I thought it was a reasonable point.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#450
post #74

If they're going to pitch HTML5 as an alternative to Flash (and, implicitly, the iPhoneOS API), then why not let them compete directly with Cocoa Touch apps? Why not offer HTML5 developers a way to take advantage of the App Store's monetization and discoverability? Apple already provides some amazing documentation and tutorials for making offline-capable mobile web apps, but they're still treated by Apple as the bast…

Don't you remember that Apple was first trying to force everything on the iPhone to be done on the web?

Hmm, oddly I don't recall the 1st party apps being HTML apps, with access to the camera.
Post reply on HN