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Wrong signal

it-kollektiv.com

41–50 of 84 posts

Re: Wrong signal

#41

Has anyone else noticed a huge uptick in their contacts signing up for Signal this month? I've added 12 contacts just in November bringing me to about 30 contacts subscribed to Signal total, which is a large increase. None of these new contacts know each other, and only 25% of them know how to write software. Does Signal publish registration numbers?

I imagine it's maybe down to the new Investigatory Powers bill in the UK, and maybe Trump in the US. The former at least seems to have led to some journalistic recommendations for Signal.

Re: Wrong signal

#42
post #33
post #32

My main beef with signal is that they release their encryption libraries as GPLv3 not LGPLv3, preventing the use of them in any commercial product that doesn't want to open their source code. Yet, they "worked with" Facebook and WhatsApp to incorporate their protocols presumably providing them with an alternative license. It sure would be nice if companies who wish to add encryption to their messaging products, but d…

Why do you think that might be? I can imagine that requiring others to open their source makes their implementation verifiable.

Exactly, which is why they should have required Facebook and WhatsApp to comply with the GPL. Alternatively, they should have created a more flexible license that could be used by Facebook, WhatsApp, or other companies to integrate their software. My point isn't about the GPL per se, but about the unfair playing field they are creating.

Re: Wrong signal

#43
post #32

My main beef with signal is that they release their encryption libraries as GPLv3 not LGPLv3, preventing the use of them in any commercial product that doesn't want to open their source code. Yet, they "worked with" Facebook and WhatsApp to incorporate their protocols presumably providing them with an alternative license. It sure would be nice if companies who wish to add encryption to their messaging products, but d…

Have you tried to get a license from OWS for closed-source commercial use or know of anyone who has? You seem to be assuming that OWS is 'playing favourites'. The reality might be 'most alleged commercial users don't want to pay for this stuff'.

Re: Wrong signal

#44
post #21

It sometimes feels like the security community is a bucket of crabs where any time something starts getting traction due to ease of use a lot of others try to pick at it due to it not being perfect even if many of those things are trade offs - phone numbers allow for signal to be a drop in replacement for other messaging apps with minimal to no registration required, I doubt I could have gotten my mother to use signa…

> It sometimes feels like the security community is a bucket of crabs where any time something starts getting traction due to ease of use a lot of others try to pick at it due to it not being perfect even if many of those things are trade offs

That's because when it comes to security often theoretical vulnerabilities end up being protocol-destroying vulnerabilities in practice. Security folks are notorious for saying, 'that won't work,' being ignored — and then everyone being surprised when indeed it doesn't work.

> phone numbers allow for signal to be a drop in replacement for other messaging apps with minimal to no registration required

The issue is not allowing phone numbers as identifiers: the issue is in not allowing other identifiers. There's already a URN scheme for telephone numbers, and there are URN schemes for many other identifiers, to include email addresses, and there are even ways to add additional schemes. If Signal used URNs rather than telephone numbers, then users could continue to use telephone numbers but advanced users could use other identifiers, as they wish.

> lack of federation means ows can control spam better unlike in a federated environment where lazy/malicious operators can cause lots of problems

A spammer cannot spam someone whose public key he does not know. If there is no central directory of identifiers to public keys, there's no way for a spammer to send spam. It is possible for someone who knows one's public key to spam one, but since the sender's public key is tied to a public identifier, one knows who sent the spam.

Does Signal perform any anti-spam activity anyway?

Re: Wrong signal

#45
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the merits of Signal, much of the criticism voiced in that article is nonetheless valid. Signal and other chat platforms employing the protocol are run as data-silos by design, using strongly identifying codes (phone numbers) as the required identifier — i.e., it is nearly impossible to create a throw-away account, because getting an anonymous phone number is no longer a practical possibility in a lot o…

> As for [0]; even if no relevant metadata is collected today by whoever owns the servers, nothing stops the party providing the service from doing so tomorrow. This is a point I see bought up a LOT. I don't believe it to be useful however - proceeding down this rabbithole rapidly leads us to a place of advanced paranoia where we can't get anything useful done. Once you start assuming actual malice on the part of the…

> proceeding down this rabbithole rapidly leads us to a place of advanced paranoia

When it comes to security, today's advanced paranoia is next year's common sense. Remember that folks used to think that telnet over the Internet was harmless.

Would OWS refuse to implement a court order directing them to collect and forward metadata? I don't know.

Re: Wrong signal

#46
post #42
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that might be? I can imagine that requiring others to open their source makes their implementation verifiable.

Exactly, which is why they should have required Facebook and WhatsApp to comply with the GPL. Alternatively, they should have created a more flexible license that could be used by Facebook, WhatsApp, or other companies to integrate their software. My point isn't about the GPL per se, but about the unfair playing field they are creating.

I think the GPL is actually a perfect license in this case. Anyone who wants to use their cipher in another GPL project is free to. Commercial entities who won't do this can pay OWS for their time, expertise and IP in order to get a different license.

Re: Wrong signal

#47
post #39
post #21

It sometimes feels like the security community is a bucket of crabs where any time something starts getting traction due to ease of use a lot of others try to pick at it due to it not being perfect even if many of those things are trade offs - phone numbers allow for signal to be a drop in replacement for other messaging apps with minimal to no registration required, I doubt I could have gotten my mother to use signa…

This isn't the security community. The security community is pretty much unanimous in supporting Signal over all other secure messengers. That's not to say that security people aren't critical of Signal, which isn't perfect for all the reasons this blog post points out --- Grugq is a pretty good source for these kinds of criticisms through the lens of an infosec person. But security people tend to deliver these criti…

How can you reasonably suggest trusting a mobile device if you have "real adversaries"? If you define your threat model to include any serious governmental interest, you cannot trust a cell phone. They have an always on network connection, remote auto-upgrade capability (at least for the baseband, if not the user software), and built-in microphone, cameras, gps, and other sensors.

Re: Wrong signal

#48
post #47
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the security community. The security community is pretty much unanimous in supporting Signal over all other secure messengers. That's not to say that security people aren't critical of Signal, which isn't perfect for all the reasons this blog post points out --- Grugq is a pretty good source for these kinds of criticisms through the lens of an infosec person. But security people tend to deliver these criti…

How can you reasonably suggest trusting a mobile device if you have "real adversaries"? If you define your threat model to include any serious governmental interest, you cannot trust a cell phone. They have an always on network connection, remote auto-upgrade capability (at least for the baseband, if not the user software), and built-in microphone, cameras, gps, and other sensors.

Some of these concerns aren't valid (for instance: the baseband of your phone is less powerful, in its systems design, than is supposed by open hardware advocates), but mostly the issue is: security is about costs and prioritization, not absolutes. The systems people propose instead of Signal are likely to cough up secrets directly to adversaries; switching from Signal to something else reduces security.

If you believe people with state-level adversaries should exclusively use transparent and open hardware, that's fine; you should see Moxie's comment on this thread to learn how you might go about ensuring that the tiny minority of users with that hardware have access to Signal on it.

Re: Wrong signal

#49
post #34

I'm repeating myself on many of these points, so I've cut and pasted some of my previous responses: > Signal uses servers controlled by OWS. Other organizations could conceivably operate their own servers because OWS open sources the software, but because OWS strictly opposes federation (meaning the interconnection of independently operated servers which the XMPP protocol (jabber) or e-mail allows), only the users co…

I really like Signal, at least as far as I can tell from the UI and the single conversation I've managed to have using it.

The biggest problem that we (my whole friend group) seem to be having is that we can't find each other due to the fact that we don't use phone numbers for communication.

Are you thinking about ways to resolve this problem?

Is it any less secure to use email addresses for identification and discovery than phone numbers?

What about ways to share a unique user id?

Re: Wrong signal

#50

I love Signal. I use it as the primary means of contact for several close friends and have contributed patches. However, it drives me nuts that OWS won't allow federation or LibreSignal and requires phone numbers as user IDs. In the past, their justification has been that their primary goal is thwarting dragnet surveillance and none of these proposals further that goal (which is debatable in itself). I wish they woul…

You probably already know this, but OWS detailed their reasoning for not supporting federation at this time in their blog a while ago: https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

I've seen it, I just disagree with it. IMO it's a dick move to say "no federation" and to also say "no 3rd-party clients." What's the point of GPL if you're completely locked to their official clients & servers anyway?
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