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Thoughts on Flash

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Re: Thoughts on Flash

#291

Post by Kadin »

tptacek wrote: post #259
anatoly wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my argument is that your argument is misleading because it ignores the fact that Apple doesn't have a choice in keeping Webkit open. It's possible that they would want to and possible they would not want to, if they had a choice. When they originally chose KHTML to base Webkit on, in 2002, years before the first iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch, iPhone OS, etc., their attitute towards being open may have been different t…

Apple has been a (or, THE) driving force behind Webkit for some time now. They weren't forced to start with LGPL code. They did because they were comfortable working under the GPL. I object to the subtext here, of "Apple only does open source when they're dragged into it". No, in fact, Apple has been a vocal and active open source contributor for many years now, to a far far greater extent than Microsoft. I started w…

That's all true, but in the last few years Apple does seem to have undergone a rather alarming shift away from open systems.

I don't think anyone is disputing that they've done a lot of nice open stuff in the last few years, since jumping on the bandwagon in a big way with Darwin ... but that sure doesn't seem to be their M.O. anymore.

It's beginning to look like that whole attitude was borne out of desperation and a need to get MacOS in line with the times, and now that they're not against the wall it's back to the same old sealed-box model that was driving people nuts twenty years ago (and which was arguably a big part of why they ended up in trouble).

Time will tell, I guess.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#292

Post by prodigal_erik »

pg wrote: post #252

What he describes as the "most important reason" is also the big mistake here. If using certain libraries or cross-platform development tools truly did result in worse apps, then the market would take care of that. He also doesn't seem to understand that such tools do not all totally hide the underlying APIs. They fall along a continuum in that respect. And in trying to ban extreme cases like Flash, Apple has also ba…

I'm starting to suspect that Apple really requires proprietary APIs and decrepit languages for the same reasons Spolsky[1] once said Microsoft used proprietary and huge and ever-changing APIs. It's cover fire to make everyone else's projects soak up more hours, increasing the fraction of captive developers and shops who are only experienced in iPhone OS work, rather than being prepared for work on iPhone OS and other platforms.

[1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#293

Post by tomlin »

telemachos wrote: post #275
tomlin wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought: Proprietary isn't bad. Open isn't great. Proprietary vs. open is bad. Proprietary + open is great. Proprietary implementations are a (sometimes) necessary interstitial step towards great open implementations. Save the "VS." narrative for Street Fighter II.

I'm not flaming, trolling or baiting, but I am curious: under what circumstances do you think proprietary implementations are necessary?

OS has contributed to advancements in design, but proprietary initiatives employ a fleet of people to research, design and case study a technology. They do it all day and not as a side project after work.

Again, it isn't a case of one vs. another. I wish we didn't need to take a side and finally come to a conclusion that both are good in their own ways. Evolution is key.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#294

Post by grinich »

emontero1 wrote: post #34

"We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash." I can attest to the veracity of this statement. My MBP's processor spikes whenever I get on YouTube or any other Flash-based site. I've had a couple of major crashes on both Firefox and Chrome while using Flash. I've also heard other users express similar views with these and other browsers on Ubuntu.

Check out YouTube's (beta) support for HTML5 video.

http://youtube.com/html5

ClickToFlash also does some good flash blocking and video replacement. http://clicktoflash.com/

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#295

Post by Psyonic »

protothomas wrote: post #86
plinkplonk wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Those of us with custom toolkits and compilers (and games developers) can probably relax." Which part of the submitted article supports this? (genuine question not snark). I see a lot of flash bashing but nothing indicating you don't have to " write in C, Objective-C or C++"

Not the parent but the article says: "The most important reason... We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers. becomes even worse if the third party is supplying a cross platform development tool. The third party may not adopt enhancements from one platform unless they are available on all of their supported platforms. Hence developers o…

The article is about Flash though. They clarified about Flash specifically, but reading other things into this seems foolhardy.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#296

Post by tptacek »

Kadin wrote: post #282
tptacek wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument appears to be that Apple, having chosen to build the most popular (by vendor support) browser library on the market on a GPL codebase, is less open than Microsoft.

The codebase is arguably more open but the platform as a whole is not. I think the closed platform thing is a lot more troubling and has the potential to be worse for the market as a whole than if they had decided to build a proprietary browser but allowed other browsers on it. (This is not to defend Microsoft's portable strategy, though; they've got the worst of both worlds. They have a shitty proprietary browser an…

I agree. Apple isn't as open as I'd like either, although I'm not worried about it (I think I, as a user and a developer, benefit from it).

But that's not really the argument here, is it? The argument is, "does Apple make Gates look like RMS". I don't think that's a credible claim.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#297

Post by potatolicious »

tomlin wrote: post #289
potatolicious wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We don't watch videos on the iPhone for 10 hours." We do other things on the iPhone. I don't want to make the choice between watching a video and then restricting my own usage just so my phone has enough juice to make a call. I'd rather watch videos and use my phone, and the more power efficient everything is, the more the user can do this. To put it in perspective, if Apple's numbers are to be believed, running F…

> a:hover is no longer (it certainly used to be) a common tool used for site navigation. Which is to say, rollover dropdown menus are out like parachute pants - it's a non-issue on the web today. Just about every site works with "clicks", which is Apple's primary form of interaction with websites on touch devices. This is precisely what I am talking about. We slice the pear in the middle and somehow end up choosing o…

> "based on miscreant use"

That's being a bit generous in favor of Adobe - the majority of the Flash development sphere is practically what one would consider "miscreant use".

Here's my impression of the different sorts of Flash use, based on my journeys on the web:

- Videos/Audio: Easily replaced by HTML5, and better too. More readily hardware accelerated, behaves as part of the core browser instead of a hijacking addon (e.g., Ctrl+T while focused on a Flash applet = no new tab), and much better battery life on mobiles.

- Crappy restaurant websites and other crimes against humanity: These should just die, and HTML5 will hopefully inspire better design ethic than this. I don't buy the argument that hovering is no longer common used as a critical navigation feature in Flash - I see it everywhere, especially for crappy restaurant websites. Flash is also impossible to crawl which reduces the usefulness of the web overall. Hell, you can't even LINK to content in a Flash site. IMHO the "full Flash site" (as opposed to Flash being a component of a page) needs to die a fiery, painful death.

- Games: The only place where Adobe has even a remotely legitimate claim that Flash is an empowering product rather than a crutch.

When I think of Flash these keywords come to mind: slow, buggy, crashy, badly designed, usability nightmare, gimmicky, unprofessional, and just plain bad.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#298

Post by tptacek »

Kadin wrote: post #291
tptacek wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has been a (or, THE) driving force behind Webkit for some time now. They weren't forced to start with LGPL code. They did because they were comfortable working under the GPL. I object to the subtext here, of "Apple only does open source when they're dragged into it". No, in fact, Apple has been a vocal and active open source contributor for many years now, to a far far greater extent than Microsoft. I started w…

That's all true, but in the last few years Apple does seem to have undergone a rather alarming shift away from open systems. I don't think anyone is disputing that they've done a lot of nice open stuff in the last few years, since jumping on the bandwagon in a big way with Darwin ... but that sure doesn't seem to be their M.O. anymore. It's beginning to look like that whole attitude was borne out of desperation and a…

They just shipped GCD. FreeBSD has already ported it.

Meanwhile, in their most hotly contested market --- the one, by the way, where Apple makes more money than any other --- over just the last two years, Apple code has been adopted by virtually all of their viable competitors.

I don't think you can support the argument that they're shifting away from open source with any credible evidence, but I'd appreciate any stab you take doing so.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#299

Post by jergosh »

These reasons are true enough, but I still believe what has been clear to me ever since the argument started:

Apple won't allow Flash on iP* because it would defeat the purpose of App Store.

With Flash support, you could make responsive, native-looking online apps specifically for Apple devices without having to go through the approval process.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#300

Post by [deleted] »

potatolicious wrote: post #297
tomlin wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a:hover is no longer (it certainly used to be) a common tool used for site navigation. Which is to say, rollover dropdown menus are out like parachute pants - it's a non-issue on the web today. Just about every site works with "clicks", which is Apple's primary form of interaction with websites on touch devices. This is precisely what I am talking about. We slice the pear in the middle and somehow end up choosing o…

> "based on miscreant use" That's being a bit generous in favor of Adobe - the majority of the Flash development sphere is practically what one would consider "miscreant use". Here's my impression of the different sorts of Flash use, based on my journeys on the web: - Videos/Audio: Easily replaced by HTML5, and better too. More readily hardware accelerated, behaves as part of the core browser instead of a hijacking a…

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