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Let's Colonize Titan

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#321

Post by JoeAltmaier »

stcredzero wrote: post #310

Although the atmosphere lacks oxygen, water ice just below the surface could be used to provide oxygen for breathing and to combust hydrocarbons as fuel. Red flag! It's a nonstarter to extract oxygen from water, use it to burn a hydrocarbon, then try to come out with more useful energy than you started with. This might have some use as an energy storage scheme, as storing hydrocarbons can be cheaper and more energy d…

And would it really be ok to walk around in methane in just a coat? Wouldn't your skin react?

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#322

Post by banach »

anigbrowl wrote: post #311
banach wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you seriously think that any of the following global political challenges: > > - convince everyone on Earth to implement changes that are bad for them, like not eating animal-based foods, with only the promise of "maybe in 200 years your descendants, should your line not be extinct by then, will benefit" as compensation Even if we assume that people are as self-centered as you portray them, eating meat is not nec…

I'm european and while I share your attitudes your policy prescriptions come off as shallow and naive. It'd be hard to find a forum where people are more aware of things like the upsides of renewable energy than they are on HN, for example. You think the answers are simple, we think your answers are well-intentioned but simplistic.

One of the main issues with the current societal debate is that simple issues are being presented as complex. This makes us incorrectly expect complex solutions to our issues.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#323

Post by m_mueller »

stcredzero wrote: post #310

Although the atmosphere lacks oxygen, water ice just below the surface could be used to provide oxygen for breathing and to combust hydrocarbons as fuel. Red flag! It's a nonstarter to extract oxygen from water, use it to burn a hydrocarbon, then try to come out with more useful energy than you started with. This might have some use as an energy storage scheme, as storing hydrocarbons can be cheaper and more energy d…

That fallacy you point out in the first paragraph is sadly found in way too many papers related to clean energy and space exploration. Oh cool, look at all the atoms laying around! Let's ignore their energy levels and cook up some usecases....

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#324

Post by belorn »

chiefofgxbxl wrote: post #172
lossolo wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding solution is not a problem, human nature is a problem. > stop eating animal-based foods Good luck with that. Sad true is that people don't want to change their life style. If you ask them for solution they will tell you exactly the same thing as you wrote, but most of them will not implement any of this solutions in their life. They want to eat meat, they want to consume, look at global warming, everyone know…

I would add that there is poor, and inconsequential information directed at people on how to mitigate the causes of climate change. For instance, I've seen in my surroundings a disproportionate emphasis on recycling. Whatever happened to reducing and re-using? While recycling reduces our need to extract more resources, it still requires energy to transport to processing facilities and process. The real issue is not c…

Just doing some simple estimates on those number, just driving for ~5m will produce more CO2 than those eating a rich-meat diet vs vegetarian diet. 25m commuting vegetarian is several houses worth of meat eaters that take the bike to work.

If we were to list what changes one can do in order to save the planet: 1) work at home, 2) bike everywhere that is human possible, 3) take the train in all other situation where possible, 4) eating/recycling/short shower/other minor aspects.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#325

Post by azernik »

tehchromic wrote: post #266

I find the "colonize other planets" dream of the secular/scientific community to be most like the "you'll go to heaven when you die" idea in religious paradoxy. You would think we might have experimented with teraforming uninhabitable place here on earth - the bottom of the Mariana, or Death Valley. If that was a snap, then we might contemplate Moon or Mars or Titan. But in fact we are systematically rendering our ow…

The point of colonizing other planets isn't the opening up of now-uninhabitable areas. It's creating a human society in a place that won't be affected if/when some catastrophic event alters the environment on Earth.

Sure, preferable to preserve Earth's environment, but there's nothing that says we can't do both, and the work that's going into interplanetary transport isn't appreciably detracting from environmental efforts here.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#326

Post by azernik »

veli_joza wrote: post #207
sfifs wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I think the big issue is expense and willingness to fund the expense. There are reasonably straightforward engineering solutions to most of the problems that have been tested for a while (gravity from teethered capsules was tested in the 60s as I recall; Radiation shielding is straightforward with sufficient quantities of water, power through naval submarine type nuclear reactors etc). The problem is these w…

As attractive as American military budget seems, why would it be in interest of USA to colonize another planet? A different nation would be formed with no more sense of attachment to USA than to rest of Earth. Rather, evolution teaches us that we have to form next stage of complex entity before these kinds of funding can be secured. Atoms -> molecules -> amino-acides -> self replicating compounds -> multicellular org…

> Rather, evolution teaches us that we have to form next stage of complex entity before these kinds of funding can be secured.

Ummmmm. What.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#327

Post by banach »

roryisok wrote: post #261
banach wrote: post #106

I think that, before colonizing other planets, we should start by realizing that Earth can easily sustain human kind for the foreseeable future, given some pretty modest tweaks to our way of life (compared to "going multi-planetary" that is). If we start valuing quality over novelty, stop eating animal-based foods and re-organize to live closer to where we work, we can stop the consumption and that is taxing our ecos…

This whole comment is so apparently naive it feels like trolling.

I can assure you that I am not trolling. I am simply convinced that most of our problems are well within our control. Unfortunately, fatalism seems to be very chic today.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#328

Post by yeppers123 »

stcredzero wrote: post #310

Although the atmosphere lacks oxygen, water ice just below the surface could be used to provide oxygen for breathing and to combust hydrocarbons as fuel. Red flag! It's a nonstarter to extract oxygen from water, use it to burn a hydrocarbon, then try to come out with more useful energy than you started with. This might have some use as an energy storage scheme, as storing hydrocarbons can be cheaper and more energy d…

Yeah, they don't need hydrocarbon fuel, they're starting with energy from somewhere else anyway to initially make the oxygen. Just continue to use that energy source(possibly storing energy with hydrocarbons).

The 12mph collision would still be done in a space suit. Hopefully the space suit has a solid combination of rigidity and cushioning to protect against that level of fall. Sinking in to a memory foam and not being able to twist limbs or necks in to bad positions sounds good.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#329

Post by Tepix »

vacri wrote: post #292
bitL wrote: post #57

Alright, so currently we can't even predict how bad osteoporosis becomes after a flight to Mars (will astronauts break their hips on the first step out of landing module?), what would radiation exposure outside Earth's magnetosphere do to our bodies, yet we should hurry up to Titan. Currently even human space flight to Mars is a pipe dream, our practical knowledge constructing vehicles capable of reaching Moon and su…

To add to your list: the moonshot cost 4% of the US GDP, and it only got a couple of men to the moon in a tiny box - far from a self-sufficient colony seed.

I think the time pressure played a significant role. Building a significant colony with tens of thousands of settlers is going to take decades. So the cost would be spread out. Reusability will also reduce cost by more than two orders of magnitude.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#330

Post by cbr »

samstave wrote: post #276
pavelrub wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that your notion of "real problems" is artificial. If our society prioritizes space colonization above eliminating nuclear stockpiles, and people are willing to accept the risk posed by the existence of those stockpiles, then there is no sense in continuing to refer to it as a "main issue facing our society". Maybe you consider it to be a main issue, but society doesn't. Or maybe society does consider…

What body on the globe is the seat of identifying and listing out "real problems" as canonical list of them?

http://globalprioritiesproject.org/ kind of tries to do this
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