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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#791

Post by coldtea »

apsec112 wrote: post #350
coldtea wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, the man has committed grievous crimes Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides. > keeps 'his people' in abject poverty A 40+ years embargo has something to…

"Soviet propagandists during the cold war were trained in a tactic that their western interlocutors nicknamed “whataboutism”. Any criticism of the Soviet Union (Afghanistan, martial law in Poland, imprisonment of dissidents, censorship) was met with a “What about...” (apartheid South Africa, jailed trade-unionists, the Contras in Nicaragua, and so forth)." - http://www.economist.com/node/10598774

And why not? Whataboutism is only fair: it means people discuss both sides, and judge things in relation, not in isolation.

A discussion that doesn't contain a "what about" element is one-sided. Those criticizing "whataboutism" only want their own shit to be left out of the discussion.

That some would call whataboutism a bad thing just goes to show how much some pots are used to be the only ones allowed to call the kettle black.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#792

Post by ommunist »

varjag wrote: post #714
ommunist wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They cannot. The US is not a direct democracy Swiss style

They did, and the world is steel reeling from announcement. There is now a huge change in political course following the election results, no matter how one tires to explain that away with nitpicking. On Cuba, even suggesting change of leadership is enough to put you in prison.

the only thing they can change is the name of the "president" in the government. There is no way Americans can legally overthrow the government. Overthrowing governments by people is called revolution. This is what Castro did with his people in Cuba.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#793

Post by coldtea »

sremani wrote: post #128
coldtea wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but I do see people calling a leader/country/regime "evil" etc for doing 1/10th of what theirs, which they'd never think of calling evil, did.

If you have a better word, surely suggest. what is the word for "clinging to power for seven decades and taking the country through economic hell, year after year, all the while jailing political opponents and at times getting rid of them"

I don't know. What is the word for "playing world cop, being full of crazy religious and racist nuts, having created KKK, being the worlds top incarceration rate, still having the death penalty, starting wars and protecting your "interests" right and left all over the globe where you have no place, getting in bed with all kind of dictators and fascist regimes --as long as they were not communist dictators they were ok-- , dropping nuclear bombs on civilians, and having the guts to point a hollier than thou finger on the rest of the world"?

Even that, I wouldn't call "evil" -- self-serving imperialistic and post-colonial would fit better. Evil is a BS biblical notion for pre-modern people. It's no way to look at history with a rational mindset, and doesn't offer any explanation of various acts, nor a historical perspective.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#794

Post by rubberstamp »

bzbarsky wrote: post #782
rubberstamp wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the life quality of populace increase or did it decrease on countries that US of A intervened? I do not understand US fear of communism(by definition ussr did not even have communism, it was something else may be call it ussr-communism?). Both countries were allies in world war. What was the need for a piss of contest between the two? I would say ussr's involvement in cold war was caused by passive aggressive ta…

> Does the life quality of populace increase or did it decrease on countries that US of A intervened? Yes, I understand that's the question at hand. In the case of Korea, there is a good argument to be made that the entire country would have had the quality of life North Korea has if it were not for the intervention. > by definition ussr did not even have communism Yes, and neither did China, nor Cuba, nor Vietnam, e…

I meant to take into account all results of US interventions from the end of world war 2. Its a net negative result for affected citizens due to underhanded tactics by US. And for US too. Which is why USA is no more a world leader. It would have had plausibility if it didn't constantly try to undermine other democratic countries atleast. But no, every other country is a possible enemy. Spying even the heads of states of allies only proves that attitude and pushes them to actually become an enemy when these underhanded tactics comes to light.

Interchange usa with ussr and communism with capitalism in the above para. Then read it as if you are from ussr.

What I would strongly advocate for is open governance. That would prevent waging war for profit. Perhaps those who calls for war should lead it like old times. Waging war for profit in the comfort of your home while your soldiers die like expendibles causes career politicians to take that risk. If won its profit, if lost then its just an election for them.

I wonder if law banning hipocracy is the answer. Most Politicians does not experience suffering of commons.I wouldn't have a problem with most politicians if at least half of them displayed an expertise in solving real problems rather than expertise in saving face

Here is a very good article that has many ideas I strongly agree with. It addresses many fundamental problems involved.

https://medium.com/rethinking-security/the-problem-with-nati...

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#795

Post by sooheon »

CalChris wrote: post #650
sooheon wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden come to mind. Is the hypocrisy not palpable? Or is the world exactly as simple as America and sanctioned clique good, rest bad?

Chelsea Manning is not in prison for dissent and Edward Snowden is not in prison at all.

How is the imprisonment of Manning not essentially for dissent? Snowden yes, is technically not imprisoned, but effective exile and hiding under threat of imprisonment or worse.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#796

Post by berntb »

Daishiman wrote: post #775
berntb wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seriously argue that there is no difference between a democracy and a dictatorship. A trivial counter example -- if you causally dismissed your government as a Cuban in Cuba online, what happens? (Since Cuba has a really, really strict control of the Internet last I looked, it is of course a bit of an academic question...) Edit: This comment is really jumping up and down in votes... :-)

Well, ask people in Honduras or Nicaragua, which are "free" countries, effectively how much better they have it than Cubans. Hint: they don't, because their countries are "democratic" in theory yet they're overrun by gang violence, misery to a level that makes the worst of Cuba a paradise, and have state actors that claim democracy in theory yet will do what they need to keep their power. If anything, the history of…

Strange, all the loops which left wing people jump through, to support murdering dictators... :-(

So, why didn't you compare with working democracies there.. instead of with cleptocracies that had coups and civil wars?

What is the real problem with doing as normal people and condemn all dictators?

Castro had options, he could have gone to Western Europe and asked for help in e.g. the 70s, as part of a democratization program.

(And when Cuba didn't have free money by being a client state, they even had problems feeding the population.)

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#797

Post by Oletros »

sebastianconcpt wrote: post #419
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"First they came for the Socialists..." Hitler was right-wing.

Hitler was NOT right-wing, please! His party was national socialist workers party. He learned from the best, his friend Stalin. Then they do what communists do best betray themselves and kill adversaries. Nobody, nobody come even close to kill even a fraction of the number of communists killed by other communists http://louderwithcrowder.com/myth-busted-actually-yes-hitler... So no, nobody is coming for you in a free…

And, by the way, linking to an article where it is said that social democracy is the same as national socialism means that nor the author of the article nor you knows anything about communism, Nazism or social democracy

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#798

Post by Pica_soO »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #616
cloverich wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if we dont find out what made him possible and prevent society from sliding into that direction again- your family suffered for nothing I think most people believe we already know. Suffering --> Revolution --> Dictatorship is a very common pattern. I think there is a lot to learn from the circumstances and based on the histories I've read of e.g. WWII germany, that feels like the general focus. I think its popu…

>I think most people believe we already know. Suffering --> Revolution --> Dictatorship is a very common pattern. Then why have people been allowing the upper classes in almost every developed and developing country to grind down the common people with suffering? How are we allowing the 1930s to happen over again if we've learned our lesson? Franklin Roosevelt is turning in his damn grave these days. Every attempt he…

Clearly the "Remember this and that"event culture is not working. Books and movies are obviously not enough to keep the horrors and fails of the past alive. Three Generations after WW2 suddenly its okay to demonize a group again.

I must admit i dont have any answer to this. And obviously more of the same doesn't work - i wish you could craft this learning experience into games. Like participating in a civil war- at the beginning you are blindly on a side- but then you play a second story, and lose some beloved character to your own murderous attitude, and you do that again and again, until it becomes clear that the enemy is you giving in to instinct.

But even that could only educate on basic humanity- you cant transport complex mistakes like economical mistakes in such game.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#799

Post by pif »

nl wrote: post #786
pif wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, indeed I'm not familiar with those examples, but it doesn't matter. As long as a government doesn't let his people run truly free elections regularly, that's bad. Emperors were considered normal at Romans' times; slaves were, too. Luckily, we have learned better since a long time. Left- or right-wing doesn't matter: dictatorship is an act of violence.

Absolute position are dangerous things without complete knowledge. I mostly agree with your position, and was hoping you had something useful to say about Singapore. Without it I think that the absolute position is naïve.

What should be added about LKY? He did many wonderful things for his country, but he was also a dictator. As a dictator, he was evil. He wasn't the worst kind of evil, but that was bad. I really can't imagine how intelligent people can still discuss about it. Being a dictator means forcing your decision to people with different ideas. That's violence. How can it be good? You may say that, in a case like Singapore, the man did more good than evil, but that isn't the point. The dictatorship part was wrong. By the way, if you need to force your ideas to most of your people, it means that you are not doing a good job as a governor. If you force your ideas to just a minority, than you are being evil just for the sake of being evil.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#800

Post by peteretep »

sooheon wrote: post #795
CalChris wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chelsea Manning is not in prison for dissent and Edward Snowden is not in prison at all.

How is the imprisonment of Manning not essentially for dissent? Snowden yes, is technically not imprisoned, but effective exile and hiding under threat of imprisonment or worse.

The same reason Ted Kaczynski isn't being imprisoned "essentially for dissent".

You're allowed to hold any opinion you like in the US and the government can't touch you. That's what dissent means. But if you commit crimes due to your dissenting opinions, they go after you for those crimes.

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