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Germany’s Chinese investment problem

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Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#111
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will have to become more democratic and accountable to their population first. Up to now they have been able to buy off their middle classes with rising incomes, once that stops as it inevitably will those people will start calling for more representation.

China is a big player now, but not even half of the people there have good lifes. Maybe Russia or USA will plant some seeds of doubt in the popuplation and China will be split up in the next 50 years.

Not gonna happen....I mean, the Chinese who don't like it move or leave.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#112
post #61
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CP clearly believes that as long as growth is maintained and people's lives improve, there won't be any political resistance. I'm inclined to agree. We have a lot of examples of people protesting and calling for more representation when they're not doing well economically but do we have any examples, any evidence, any indication at all of people doing that when things go well economically? The potential loss of q…

When people are well fed and happy they don't see the need to up end the status quo. When there's no bread for people to eat then heads will roll. Therefore it will be interesting to see how long China can keep the growth up, and if there is ever a bust, what kind of change will happen. For all we know they could just go down the path of having a dictator of some form again.

The North parts of China did go bust (factories moved south) from being the wealthiest. Did not lead to a massive resistance.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#113
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a plenty democratic place, I recommend coming and observing it with your eyes, asking people here questions, and assessing the history of the revolution yourself.

With all due respect... I have been there. I went on a business trip to visit our offshore development office in Beijing. A few of the devs went sightseeing with me one weekend and we ended up going to see the forbidden city. The cab dropped us off at Tienamen Square and I asked if we could spend some time there before going across the street. There was general consternation as to why I was interested in such a borin…

Other way around....it's censored but the event aren't given the historical importance...so someone might be aware a rash of protests broke out that day but not the tank dude or how big they were.

A bit like how some countries gloss over wars they lost or ended in a true....China takes it to the next level for some reason...it's not like the tank ran over the dude.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#114
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect... I have been there. I went on a business trip to visit our offshore development office in Beijing. A few of the devs went sightseeing with me one weekend and we ended up going to see the forbidden city. The cab dropped us off at Tienamen Square and I asked if we could spend some time there before going across the street. There was general consternation as to why I was interested in such a borin…

I don't understand why every single discussion about China has to touch this issue and this is the first thing people do when they visit China. Do you talk to Germans by starting off discussing how Hitler killed millions of people? Do you talk to Japanese people about WW2 and how was the experience being bombed by nukes after saying hello? Do you expect non-US citizens to start talking to you about the massacres of i…

Sadly, some Americans do.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#115
post #36

China is practicing the economic equivalent of embrace (buy Western technology), extend (their own 3G standards for instance), and eventually extinguish (locking the West out of their market). As private individuals, we don't mind being bought out by Chinese. As members of societies, I believe it is important to know that there is a concerted plan by China that is at best neutral, and at worst, hostile to Western eco…

Let's not forget the China has acquired this position by providing the world with goods for 30 years, for a price that meant misery for their workers. It's not entierly undeserved that they are now able to execute whatever grand evil plan they imagined. We're free to prevent them from accessing our markets, as long as we reimport manufacturing into free-market countries, which would mean paying a bit more than $7 for…

Chinese factories aren't that bad....whence I started talking about the labor standards in nearby Indian factories he was shocked.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#116

>"“To have a major Chinese shareholder is a huge benefit in opening doors,” Gordon Riske, CEO of Germany-based Kion, parts of which were acquired by Chinese state-owned Weichai Power in 2012, said during this week’s Hamburg Summit, a conference on EU-China economic relations." My concern is that those doors might only open in one direction though from China into another country. Will any of these acquisitions result…

> Will any of these acquisitions result in Germany having an easier time doing business in mainland China?

That's obviously what your citation says.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#117

When the Czech republic and other ex-soviet states dropped communism and started "moving west", the west greeted these countries with open arms and a chorus of "opening your countries up to foreign investments will spur growth and make your economies flower!" The Czech Republic responded, by allowing foreign investments essentially without reservations. This lead to a highly corrupt fire sale, called the "privatizati…

Same privarization scheme was applied to all statea in eastern Europe post iron curtain fall. Serbia is one example of huge corruption during privatization of companies

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#118
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect... I have been there. I went on a business trip to visit our offshore development office in Beijing. A few of the devs went sightseeing with me one weekend and we ended up going to see the forbidden city. The cab dropped us off at Tienamen Square and I asked if we could spend some time there before going across the street. There was general consternation as to why I was interested in such a borin…

As a Chinese I have to say it's hard to believe “Not one of the six Chinese devs had ever seen that photo or had any knowledge of what happened there”, it's more likely they don't want to tell you what they really think. When I was in Uni, the Tiananmen square videos are all over the university intranet, including the documentary shot by Hongkong journalist and some shorter documentaries made by the west in later tim…

My guess is not that it's been censored, per se. I believe that it's been contextualized by the government in a way that's out of alignment with the way the rest of the world views that event. Outside of China, we view that as a symbolic event of an unknown, brave individual standing up to an oppressive government. Inside China, it's likely seen as a relatively inconsequential event. Their reactions to my interest included both "what event are you interested in?" or "why are you interested in that event?"

I don't think this is unique to China and I think it happens to some extent in the US. I think people, especially the right wing Republican voters, are shielded from the viewpoints of the rest of the world on many topics. Having been outside the US for almost the entire election cycle, I don't think most voters in the US realize just how much Trump is ridiculed outside of the US. In the US, the comparison with Clinton is roughly 50-50. Outside the US, I've yet to meet one person who doesn't believe that Trump could be a serious choice. There's recognition that Clinton isn't perfect and we should have nominated someone better, but there's general consternation that our country could have made the choice that it did. Granted, I've been mostly in Asian, Muslim countries where Trump's rhetoric about Muslims has an even greater ring of ignorance to it. But the US media has contextualized a lot of what went on in the election cycle very differently from the way the media in the rest of the world has.

The difference, of course, is that the recontextualizing in China is at the behest of the Chinese government. It's disturbing and dangerous no matter how it happens. But it's undemocratic when the government is the one doing it.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope so. But China is going to be a much larger thing to chew and swallow. Also Japan depended (and does) on "the West" for military protection. And military might ultimately sets the bounds for what you can get away with in trade.

Considering that "the West" is reliant upon China for cheap labor for high tech goods, as much as China is reliant upon exporting to "the West", and with global military powers at a MAD stalemate, I don't think that is much concern for the near future outside of elites figuring out how to maintain their own local monopolies and playing it off the public to get an advantageous deal.

That is the problem right there. The Chinese seem to plan for the long game, not the near future. Anyway, its an interesting time to be alive.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/achieve more tax synergies/evade more tax

Evasion means you do not declare certain income, and that gets you in jail. I think that's obvious. You want people declaring their taxes. Avoidance, however, is staying within the law to achieve a beneficial outcome. Given any company has freedom to structure transactions in any way they want, it's only normal to go for the most tax efficient way of generating profits. As if you would pay 35% corporate tax if there…

Thank you for clarifying evasion vs avoidance. But in a larger context, there is some friction. The companies are trans-national. Countries, not. So by legal or illegal means, companies tend to shift their weight around to where the money stays with them.

To companies, legality is just an expression of power. If the counter party (the government) is strong, the company either focuses on legal avoidance (GM) or avoids the reach of the strong party (Ericsson avoiding US jurisdiction). If the counter party is weak (south american governments) they can be illegaly manipulated (Ericsson). If the government has strong local enforcement but little resources and incentive to go after international shady deals, the country can be used as an operations base but with no illegal activity taking place in THAT country. (Sweden and Telia Sonera, Ericsson.)

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