Thoughts on Flash • Hacker News Board

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#101

Post by wfarr » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:39 PM UTC

gecko wrote: post #84

ptomato wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* "Objective+C++ is not open." Yeah? http://gcc.gnu.org/ * "Adobe only wants cross-platform apps, not good apps; generic subjective bullshit." Alright, so point to a single Adobe Air app, for example, that looks & behaves natively. * "Comparing video decompression versus hardware decompression battery gains and claiming that's an advantage over Flash: bullshit, since Flash uses video decompression in most cases." Did…

Whether Objective-C is open is a weird discussion. The Objective-C compiler is fully GPL'd, so that's definitely open. Objective-C, though, depends on a runtime, and Apple's runtime is proprietary. While the GNU project has their Objective-C runtime, it performs markedly worse, and misses a lot of features that are available in Apple's version, including blocks, GCD-style multithreading, garbage collection, fast iter…

Mono implements a good bit of .NET, but not all of it. That doesn't make it any less of an open platform.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#102

Post by ugh » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:39 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #73

ugh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s wrong about this argument? Would all Flash content that uses rollover just work on mobile touch devices or would some kind of modification be necessary? I’m really curious about that.

There is Flash content, that uses onmouseover. There is also HTML+JS content, that uses onmouseover. So what was the argument again? In both, Flash and HTML+JS, you can use onmouseover. You don't have to, it is option. So what makes the difference?

I think you misread Jobs. He thinks of this as a transition of the web from desktop to mobile. He thinks HTML+JS is the future and the gains of supporting “legacy” stuff like Flash are diminutive because it wouldn’t “just run”.

That’s the argument.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#103

Post by boucher » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:41 PM UTC

joshwa wrote: post #74

If they're going to pitch HTML5 as an alternative to Flash (and, implicitly, the iPhoneOS API), then why not let them compete directly with Cocoa Touch apps? Why not offer HTML5 developers a way to take advantage of the App Store's monetization and discoverability? Apple already provides some amazing documentation and tutorials for making offline-capable mobile web apps, but they're still treated by Apple as the bast…

They aren't pitching them as equal. Apple wants them to be unequal.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#104

Post by va_coder » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:41 PM UTC

It continues to amaze me that Jobs, as CEO of the 2nd largest company by market cap, is more technical than many of the managers I have had.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#105

Post by rimantas » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:42 PM UTC

zyb09 wrote: post #17

Sounds pretty reasonable, but common, if they needed to prohibit cross-compilers, did they really needed to do that just RIGHT BEFORE CS5 was going to ship? Any developer putting that much resources into something would be pissed. Adobe didn't make it secret, that they were devoloping an iPhone compiler, so Apple could've just told them right away it's a no-go.

  did they really needed to do that just RIGHT BEFORE CS5 was
  going to ship

I believe so. Otherwise they release iPhone OS 4, but customers get a flood of non-native, non-HIG aware apps coded by Flash developers and compiled for i* by the tool who knows nothing about new version of the OS. That cannot be the great user experience.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#106

Post by Qz » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:42 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #89

Qz wrote: post #72

This is where he loses me: "Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open." Adobe can just as easily say: "Though Flash products are proprietary, we strongly believe that standards pertaining to what software is allowed to run on your computer should be open." It's doublespeak either way, and it's crazy to think th…

I guess by "standards pertaining to the web" Apple means HTML, Javascript (ECMAScript to be precise) and CSS. What do you mean by "standards pertaining to what software is allowed to run on your computer" ?

Less of an explicit standard and more the previous consensus that the company that sells you your computer shouldn't retain control over what kind of legitimate software you can run on it after it's in your possession, based on some self-aggrandizing notion that they know what's best for you better than you do.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#107

Post by Qz » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:43 PM UTC

boucher wrote: post #103

joshwa wrote: post #74

If they're going to pitch HTML5 as an alternative to Flash (and, implicitly, the iPhoneOS API), then why not let them compete directly with Cocoa Touch apps? Why not offer HTML5 developers a way to take advantage of the App Store's monetization and discoverability? Apple already provides some amazing documentation and tutorials for making offline-capable mobile web apps, but they're still treated by Apple as the bast…

They aren't pitching them as equal. Apple wants them to be unequal.

Which is why their argument here is bullshit.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#108

Post by shawndumas » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:43 PM UTC

joshwa wrote: post #74

If they're going to pitch HTML5 as an alternative to Flash (and, implicitly, the iPhoneOS API), then why not let them compete directly with Cocoa Touch apps? Why not offer HTML5 developers a way to take advantage of the App Store's monetization and discoverability? Apple already provides some amazing documentation and tutorials for making offline-capable mobile web apps, but they're still treated by Apple as the bast…

http://www.phonegap.com/

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#109

Post by betageek » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:43 PM UTC

betageek wrote: post #32

I don't buy this at all, although some of the reasoning is sound there's some jaw-dropping rubbish in this statement. esp. around 'openess'. This is one big red herring - Adobe pissed Jobs off, this is his revenge, end of story.

Wow, when did HN become all Apple fanboys, all the time? - I thought this was supposed to be a rational argument but it seems as long as Jobs is destroying Flash he's ok with everyone, even while he's locking down the rest of his platform.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#110

Post by rjurney » Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 2:43 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #5

yan wrote: post #2

I wonder why Jobs felt he had to explain this situation, which (in my opinion) was fairly clear to anyone involved in technology. Perhaps the criticism was getting to him? Also, I found this to be a brilliant snipe: > If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?

It's called control over the experience something that really shouldn't be a surprise for Jobs. There are literally millions of experiences out there that can't be done with HTML5, CSS and JavaScript. if you want proof, go to theFWA.com and have a look around. For every bad flash solution out there, there are some quite fantastic ones. Flash gives you control of the experience in ways that by any metrics outcompete H…

You mean the Flash app linked to on the front page of theFWA that took 30 seconds to load and almost crashed Chrome on a late model Macbook Pro 17? Is that the kind of mobile experience you're after?