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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#481

Post by collyw »

Natsu wrote: post #375
kLeeIsDead wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the call-center example was dumb too, but he got his point across. What you describe is the way I read it as well. That's why I don't think I'm going to pursue a career in software engineering despite doing it as a hobby since a young age. I think there'd be some irreversible damage to my brain if I used something I've liked and identified with for my whole life as a means to do something I hate. To me it s…

I dunno. I've done straight-up factory work, i.e. manual labor as well as IT. Maybe I just have a good company, but I'd much rather do this than ever go back to factory work, even if the pay were better in the factory job.

Try doing Salesforce integrations. Unstimulating, boring factory line work IT.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#482

Post by thenomad »

joantune wrote: post #472
thenomad wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about self-improvement, which is similar. OK, further question - what if they want to watch The Wire and write a series critique for public consumption as their communal work? That's definitely something tangible. Does that answer change if they're: 1) A complete unknown with a blog 2) Have published work but aren't very well known 3) Are a famous media writer with thousands of fans asking for this crit…

Yes, it's very tricky to classify something as worth subsidizing and something else that doesn't, especially in regard to Art. I would say: To get an UBI, you would need to do 20hrs work/week. Every other activity would be as is today. i.e. if you have and are able to reach a good crowd, you'll make money with sponsorships and ad revenue.. but you need a big/good enough crowd for that to happen.. and that takes time…

And what's the definition of "work" here? Sorry, we seem to have missed that.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#483

Post by ng12 »

jondubois wrote: post #409
ng12 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people rationalize it like that. I think they rationalize it as "I can make a lot of money here so I will". The only way it gets better if you can disincentivize people from acting in self-interest which doesn't really work in a capitalist society.

Maybe, but I think they should. That's what it means to have a conscience. I worked for a major gambling (sports betting) corporation as a software engineer (for 6 months). The job was enjoyable (and extremely well paid) but it was obviously bad for society. I don't have a problem admitting that what I did was evil. I was a small fish, but it's no excuse. Essentially, I took money from people who were not as smart as…

But most of the time it's not black-and-white and people are really good at rationalizing. If you work at a hedge fund chances are a good chunk of the assets come from pension funds, foundations, and university endowments. You can feel good about that! Alternatively, if you work at Apple improving iOS for blind users you still have to deal with the fact that the phones are made by mistreated, underpaid workers in China.

I had kind of the opposite experience as you. I worked at a company that I felt good about, but over time they took on projects I was less on-board with for various reasons (money, political capital). Eventually it got to the point where it was no longer worth the lower paycheck.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#484

Post by majewsky »

ajmurmann wrote: post #366
jcoffland wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to work with you if you're a nine-to-fiver either. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with you for feeling this way but I don't want to work with people who don't love what they do. Edit: to clarify, by nine-to-fiver I mean someone who is just punching the clock in order to make a living but does not care much about what they are doing. I don't really care what hours you work if you're real…

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. I've worked with plenty amazing people who enjoy their job at which they write fabulous code and then go home at regular hours and spend many hours on their personal projects or just playing around with new, interesting technology. Unless you own part of the company you work for that's probably the smarter thing to do. What I find concerning are people who write mediocre code 9…

So what? There's plenty of code that doesn't need a rockstar to write.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#485

Post by majewsky »

reflexive wrote: post #471
nathan_f77 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like everyone who downvoted you is missing the whole point of the article that was posted. The point is to imagine what your life would be like if you didn't have to work for money. Imagine if you could work on startup ideas and software projects simply because you were passionate about solving a problem or creating something, and not because of the money. And it doesn't even have to be something useful, or so…

Imagine if you could work on startup ideas and software projects simply because you were passionate about solving a problem or creating something, and not because of the money. I've been in this position, and I've concluded: if you really have no financial constraints, you'd be daft to spend your time working on a startup, or solving the dull, pedestrian problems that are of such utilitarian concern to society. If yo…

That's a false dichotomy. Even with, say, UBI, you can still pay people to work on important problems.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#486

Post by pmoriarty »

mungoid wrote: post #474
cesarbs wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…

I actually JUST left my company this week to do freelancing for this exact reason. They tell you to not work over 40 but then they give you more work than you can reasonably get done in a normal work week so what do you do? Either get behind on everything or you work many extra hours.

Not only is it common for companies to assign you more work than you can do in 40 hours while asking you to work no more than 40 hours, but it's also quite common for them to make you feel inferior if you don't accomplish the assigned herculean labors in 40 hours or less.

I had a boss who would constantly tell us about some wizard team mates of his at another company who could perform miracles and knew everything. I'm sure he thought that he was inspiring us, but it actually made at least me feel like a complete bozo.

No, I can't perform miracles. I don't know everything. I have better things to do with my time than devote my life and my blood to the corporation.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#487

Post by JamesBarney »

pdonis wrote: post #357
JamesBarney wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the big question is if work is a aplenty, and workers scarce. Why is it so hard for such a large portion of the population to find good work? Why doesn't all of that work turn into jobs?

> Why doesn't all of that work turn into jobs? Because the market that is supposed to match workers with jobs is highly inefficient. There are a number of possible causes of this, but I think a major one is regulation, which greatly increases the cost of hiring a worker. Any market with large transaction costs is going to be inefficient. That's one of those "economics 101" things that many people tend to forget.

Which regulations do you think are the greatest impediment to hiring?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#488

Post by BurningFrog »

rubberstamp wrote: post #470
BurningFrog wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> economics is not a physical science where you can run A/B tests on an economy and find results The is broadly true of Macro Economics. This might even be impossible as a science, since the object of study (world economy and markets) is aware of its findings, and adapts around them. Micro Economics, or "Price Theory" as it maybe should be called, is OTOH a very powerful science that gives deep and counter intuitive…

Micro economics is not science either as people are conscious and adapts(find loopholes) around them whenever its possible to do so.

Got any examples?

If we're talking about supply and demand, price elasticity, and things like that, I can't think of any loopholes. Knowing how these things work only makes people make more informed decisions.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#489

Post by donall »

knieveltech wrote: post #210
tachyonbeam wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this sentiment. There is a lot of work that needs doing. There are also a lot of parents out there with young children who could use a nanny. There's a need for more therapists, or just people to talk to. There's a lot of work that needs doing. There's an abundance of people to do the work, and I feel like we have plenty of natural resources. It seems to me that we could build housing for everyone, we ha…

There is no need for additional construction to meet housing demand. In the continental US there are something like 6 empty units for every homeless person in the country. In turn this means there is no pent up demand for building materials, so putting people to work in forestry, quarry, cement, steel, etc is also a non-starter. Global food surplus indicates there is no pressing need to put additional people to work…

Do you have citations, particularly for housing? I'm not trying to be difficult; I'm genuinely interested in the sources because I have a sense that you're right but have never found great evidence to back it up. The raw number of residential-zoned buildings vs the number of homeless people is not as useful as it could be. I'd love to see some deeper analysis.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#490

Post by donall »

knieveltech wrote: post #210
tachyonbeam wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this sentiment. There is a lot of work that needs doing. There are also a lot of parents out there with young children who could use a nanny. There's a need for more therapists, or just people to talk to. There's a lot of work that needs doing. There's an abundance of people to do the work, and I feel like we have plenty of natural resources. It seems to me that we could build housing for everyone, we ha…

There is no need for additional construction to meet housing demand. In the continental US there are something like 6 empty units for every homeless person in the country. In turn this means there is no pent up demand for building materials, so putting people to work in forestry, quarry, cement, steel, etc is also a non-starter. Global food surplus indicates there is no pressing need to put additional people to work…

Do you have citations, particularly for housing? I'm not trying to be difficult; I'm genuinely interested in the sources because I have a sense that you're right but have never found great evidence to back it up. The raw number of residential-zoned buildings vs the number of homeless people is not as useful as it could be. I'd love to see some deeper analysis.
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