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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#441

Post by forgetsusername »

vacri wrote: post #230
cesarbs wrote: post #212

Another good read on the topic: http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/political-science/t... I like this bit: "the knowledge worker is under severe external constraints. Much of their work is assisted or mediated through information technology, which contributes to a de-skilling of their cognitive labor. And on top of this they are expected to fully invest themselves in their jobs in a way that manufacturing labor…

Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy . It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about manag…

>Classifying call center drones (of which I was once one) as 'knowledge workers', and then using them to discuss how hard knowledge workers have it, is beyond disingenuous.

Disingenuous because it doesn't align with how you have chosen define "knowledge worker"? Because as far as I'm concerned a knowledge worker is a person who's knowledge is their main tool. "White collar" is another common title. Call center drones definitely qualify under either of these definitions. I mean, a point of the piece is that there's a misinterpretation about how glamorous the "knowledge worker" title is. The fact that you work a cushy, high-paying job doesn't refute that.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#442

Post by thenomad »

joantune wrote: post #426

The answer: communal work. Academic research, science, your own projects! UBIs for nothing would only work for certain people. We should ask them to commit to, and then supervise them in projects. That'll be the future, not fuck work, but love the work that you're doing, because you chose it after all! The author referred to some interesting concepts of lack of work that we can draw conclusions from: the Aristocrat e…

That's a really interesting proposal, and one of the few I've heard that actually could improve on a UBI in some ways.

The obvious leak point - who would determine what was "worthy" work? If someone said "my project right now is to watch all of The Wire", would that be OK? Would it differ if it was "all of CSI Miami"? What about if it was "All of MIT's lectures on machine learning"?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#443

Post by forgetsusername »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #323
throwaway368 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the kind of moronic bs that I haven't and will not put up with. Executives most of the time are paid, and compensated to be there 24/7. Software engineers are not. While founders and other execs have tendency to forget that - deal with it. I am there between 8am - 4pm, or 6am - 2pm or what ever it says in my contract. No more, no less. You want me to do extra hours, fine, most of the time happy to, yo…

My colleagues have base pays > $150k/yr and I'm closer to $200k/yr. I consider myself very well paid, I'm grateful for it, and I'm available whenever I'm needed, within reason.

>within reason

I think the concern is about what is "within reason".

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#444

Post by forgetsusername »

zardo wrote: post #352
stale2002 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also because they like those areas? Many people dream of moving to New York. And they would dream that with out without the jobs.

It may more or less boil down to lots of movies and television shows being set in New York.

>It may more or less boil down to lots of movies and television shows being set in New York

Movies and TV shows are filmed in NY because it's a world class, iconic city. It didn't become that because of media.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#445

Post by Drdrdrq »

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #341
cesarbs wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of blue collar job do you do? A part of me dislikes that I turned what was a genuine interest of mine into my job. Software was a lot more fun to do before it became a professional thing for me.

I'm still in college, but I have some experience in renovating apartments/houses so I'll probably do that.

That might work out well for you because it is creative. Working in a factory or in an office though... Not so much.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#446

Post by mooreds »

thirdsun wrote: post #419
cesarbs wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…

It doesn't have to be like that. Personally, I work for a small company that manufactures a physical product (shoes actually) and manages a few retail stores, but also develops most of its internal software (CRM, ERP, BI), tools, website and shop in-house, which results in the fact that development and software engineering is just one of many areas the company focuses on. I can't remember the last time I couldn't lea…

I was in a similar team and really enjoyed it for a number of years. Left when I realized I would "top out"--there is only so much room for advancement at such a company. I also couldn't justify learning and deploying all kinds of new tech for the company (because it would be a bad decision for the company to have a number of heterogeneous systems), and that was decaying my skillset.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#447

Post by youdontknowtho »

cwyers wrote: post #156
youdontknowtho wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't the point. The point is that the "laws" of economics are the same rigorous laws of physics. Markets aren't forces of nature. That's propaganda.

Citing economic theory that has been discredited as evidence that economics is not a science makes about as much sense as citing Ptolemy's Geocentric model as evidence that astronomy isn't a science.

Again. No one need to prove that economics isn't the same kind of science as physics. so that guy made a bad analogy. don't care.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#448

Post by msandford »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #271
msandford wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes of course, specialization increases abundance. But if you read the given examples it wasn't suggested that farmers make their own diesel. But rather that they own their land and equipment. Same for plumbers, it's advocated that they own their own tools. Basically it's lamenting the lack of small businesses. That's not really wrong either. Diversity in business ownership might not be maximally "efficient" in certa…

What's special about energy that makes it OK to rent, but not a tractor? (I can't buy a lifetime supply of diesel any more or less than I can pre-pay for a lifetime tractor rental)

You don't rent energy, you buy it. You go to the pump and buy a gallon of fuel. When you buy electricity you pay for a kWh, you don't rent the kWh and give it back when you're done.

I don't see the problem with a person buying a house to live in or a car to drive.

I don't see a problem with a programmer buying a computer to start a software business instead of renting it.

So why should plumbers be employed by others who own the tools and the brand? Why should farmers not attempt to own their land and tools?

Why are people here so down on "normal" people owning small businesses but startups are totally great?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#449

Post by scalio »

Fuffidish wrote: post #429

I think it's not true that there is no more work to be done. We are just stuck with the idea that jobs come with growth, and that only jobs that yield growth should be paying salaries. I believe if we sat down and talked we could find hundreds of jobs around us, it's just the money that is lacking, if we could access even a little percentage of the huge money spent in wars, entertainment, gambling,... Many cities, fo…

You've hit the nail on the head. Some jobs come from unnecessary complexity in the system (civil servants, accounting people); some jobs exist because they're too complicated for machines (for now); some are just plainly unneeded (stock brokers, hedge fund managers and the like). As AI and robotics advance, progressively more classes of workers will suddenly find themselves superfluous.

What will they do then? My biggest fear is that most will simply fall into consumerist lullaby mode. I have no doubt big corporations will find a way to make non-labour-bound income work to their advantage.

Rendering healthcare possible for everybody and -thing, up to planet scale, is certainly an enticing aspect of this labour revolution (these activities need humans and human intelligence, which are currently all locked up and undervalued in traditional jobs).

It gives us time to think. For the first time in history, an entire civilization gets the opportunity to work on its intellect. See my other comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042772) in this thread.

That all these jobs don't pay just shows how ill-equipped our current system is to handle free-thinking people, and freedom as a concept.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#450

Post by stale2002 »

internaut wrote: post #403
stale2002 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are empty houses, but not in places where people want to live. There is absolutely a housing shortage in popular metropolitan areas (take your pick) . If there wasn't, then prices wouldn't be so high.

Why aren't we building down? Each plot owns the land beneath, yes? So build downwards if zoning prohibits building up.

You don't gain that much by building downward, one or two floors at most, and you also run into other laws.

For example, an apartment is required to have a window or fresh air source.

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