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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#351

Post by brnoenfield »

logicallee wrote: post #260
wildmusings wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family and the family of just about everyone I grew up around had their whole lives destroyed by this evil man. He has executed thousands, has imprisoned thousands more, and has totally ruined a country that was once the most prosperous in Latin America. You may philosophize about the 'complexity' of the life of this evil man, but for people who actually lived under his abuse, who have seen what he has done to the…

At the national assembly the sad news is stated: "Fidel Castro has passed away. However, his legacy lives on!" The old man in the back of the audience, marcoperaza, sighs and says, "Alas! If only it were the other way around..."

Beautifully put.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#352

Post by celticninja »

tmptmp wrote: post #311
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler. So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society. >>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline. This is a disingenuous advice. Will you not critici…

Sounds like you believed the US propaganda over the Cuban propaganda.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#353

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

gaius wrote: post #305
edblarney wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda." + Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. + Fidel does not allow democracy + He does not allow any real internet access + Fidel puts political dissidents in jail + Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy + Cuban's live in relative poverty + Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 ot…

Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment This is the big one. Many countries have restrictions on people coming, for various reasons, but any country/govt that prevents people leaving knows perfectly well that it's doing something that people want to flee.

How much does it cost to stop being an American citizen? How many poor American people can afford that cost?

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#354

Post by Y_Y »

kekimo wrote: post #317
50CNT wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though socially frowned upon, you could make the same argument substituting Stalin or Hitler, and it'd still make sense. Matter of fact, Germans regularly do. "Never again" requires you to view what happened objectively. If you viewed Hitler as a bogeyman, an anomaly, it becomes easy to argue that it won't happen again, but letting your guard down is precisely what will let it happen again. Because "Class Warfare", "…

This is false, the Germans didn't learn anything at all from WWIII. If they did learn anything, they learned the wrong lessons. Germans learned that one shouldn't wage war, that there is no such thing as 'better' cultures or societies, that one should under no circumstances label any group, that one must be tolerant towards anyone at all cost. What do Germans do then, once we start talking about cultures where infant…

I must have missed that war.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#356

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

gaius wrote: post #309
IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ignorant of the reality of Cuban society. People have been able to leave Cuba freely since 1980. Cuba is a participatory democracy, with essentially every adult being involved. Internet access was not really a priority with the USSR collapsing and the recovery from that, but it is being quickly broadened. Only those who actively attempt to undermine the Cuban democracy are imprisoned, but people are free to v…

None of that is true. I've been to Havana; I've seen the buildings where 3 families are crammed into an apartment meant for one, where the windows are covered with cardboard because there's no glass, the electricity is on a few hours a day, where the concrete is crumbling so badly you could break it off with your fingers. And I've seen just outside town the gorgeous villas with manicured gardens and water features, w…

I bet you've spent a lot of time in some of the estates in Tottenham, Harlesden or Haringey.

You went on a tourists' visit of poverty. Try doing the same in London, and let's see how you do there, bruv.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#357

Post by adventured »

pavanred wrote: post #270
mzw_mzw wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And of course the Communist economic system -- the one that has led to immiseration and collapse everywhere it has been tried, all over the world -- has nothing to do with this. Must be the embargo!

China

China had to abandon the economics of Communism in order to produce an economic boom finally after decades of extreme failure. They had to adopt systems of the market economy: private property, stock exchanges & stock ownership, real estate ownership, privatization of the means of production, wealth accumulation, business formation, etc. etc.

They hold on to the politics of the Communist party dictatorship as a means to continue their power and wealth extraction (China's political elites are by far the wealthiest politicians on earth, they make the US Congress look like paupers).

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#358

Post by matt4077 »

chirau wrote: post #237
grzm wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely carried from another language, e.g., https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simbabwe Similarly Ruanda/Rwanda

granted :) my mistake, overlooked that possibility

No, it's quite alright – I should be writing in English. I do manage to, in general. But these "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike my native language"-words sometimes trip me up.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#359

Post by edblarney »

Elv13 wrote: post #210
frozenport wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further they received significant aid from the USSR.

And their economy wasn't half bad back then (from a communist standard). In Canada we always had a softer tone with Cuba. A lot of the US PoV seems propaganda driven. Sure, there is a vocal expat group that had very good reasons to leave and were definitely harassed/prosecuted/persecuted for their views/lifestyle. The same kind of minorities exists in the US (watch Trump speeches from the last year). On the other sid…

" In Canada we always had a softer tone with Cuba."

Partly because we are not the US and did not have a direct confrontation.

But partly because Trudeau Sr. was a communist-revolutionary apologist, in the French intellectual sense - and chilled with Fidel to boost is 'socialist hipster' cred and to thumb the eye of the Americans.

As a young man, I found it admirable. Now that I know many ex-Cubans, I find it utterly repulsive and a stain on our history. It's one thing to have 'relations' or 'diplomacy' with another nation - it's altogether another to chum around with a thug. If it was in the name of getting Fidel to let his people off the island, or encourage democracy... sure ... but it was not that.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#360

Post by celticninja »

briandear wrote: post #345
pavanky wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry others have been dismissing your comment outright. But please understand what OP is saying does not seem to imply that we philosophize the 'complexity of life' of Fidel Castro the individual, but rather the set of people he belongs to: popular revolutionaries who became dictators hated by their own people. What happened in Cuba after Castro came into power is similar to what happened in other countries aft…

This stuff didn't happen after he came to power -- he came to power because of his atrocities.

He came to power supported by people who were fed up (in part) with the atrocities combined by Batista the right wing dictator supported by the US. As is usual there is a heavy influence of the US on this site so Castries is generally reviled but he was no different to any number of dictators save that the US did not support him and the US propaganda machine worked against him. He did bad things but so did many others with the implicit or explicit support of the US. Most Americans dislike him due to the 50 years of negative US press not because of specifics actions they could detail.
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