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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#181

Post by endisukaj »

coldtea wrote: post #77
edblarney wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a disturbing position. I don't doubt that his doctors may have helped you. However, the man has committed grievous crimes, keeps 'his people' in abject poverty, on an 'island prison'. More than 85% of the economy is in the control of the military - his private Army. "Up until today, Cuba still sends significant numbers of doctors to remote African areas and provide expensive medical procedures for free." This…

> However, the man has committed grievous crimes Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides. > keeps 'his people' in abject poverty A 40+ years embargo has something to…

> Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides.

Yes, because comparing the capabilities of a small, poor island nation is the same as comparing the capabilities of the most powerful country in the world.

Castro had no capability to do what the US has done, had he had the chance how would've done much worse.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#182

Post by geff82 »

So I open a bottle of champagne as another surpressor is gone. He did not care about the lives of his opponents, so I have nothing against his own departure. Would have been great if he had used his power to build up something.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#183

Post by bdrool »

chirau wrote: post #24

As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century. To pretend here, for me, as if he was cruel to our continent would be both ungrateful and untrue. The man offered free training and medical school for most of our African doctors, he harbored, trained and armed many a guerilla group in our pursuit of independence from colonization. Up until today, Cuba still sends signi…

> The truth is, if as a continent we are to point at individual world leaders who did the most for African nations, Fidel Castro is very high up that list, if not at the top.

Many don't know this, but George W. Bush had quite an impact:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President's_Emergency_Plan_for...

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#184

Post by endisukaj »

betolink wrote: post #133
refurb wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Stalin helped defeat Germany in WW2. That doesn't really make up for the millions of Russians he killed for political reasons.

You're comparing apples and oranges, Fidel never killed millions, The U.S. government alone has killed far more people in a single day than Cuba under Fidel Castro.

Fidel never had as much subjects as Stalin to kill.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#185

Post by kuschku »

edblarney wrote: post #65
plandis wrote: post #30

I might not agree with his methods but he did seem like a leader that legitimately cared about Cubas citizens.

I don't see how a leader that 'cares about his people' would not allow them to leave their island prison, not have democracy, not have access to the internet, not trade with one another. I don't think he cared about them in any way. He had a totalitarian view of how they should be, and he forced that upon them.

> not have democracy, not have access to the internet,

So foreign countries’ propaganda can overthrow your democracy and put up a complete crazy, due to fake news?

The US has seen how much Russia Today and fake news have influenced this presidential election. Would you want that to become an issue in your country?

This is a serious problem one has to ask themselves.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#186

Post by ramy_d »

mememachine wrote: post #90
liquidise wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's sad that people should hold such a tyrant in such esteem What is sad is how quickly people reach for a wide, monotone brush they like to paint things with lately. As an american, i have heard roughly your description of castro my entire life. To hear another version, from someone living a life in a continent i have never visited is both refreshing and educational.

as he demonstrated the version from the other continent was uninformed

I wouldn't dismiss it as uninformed. chirau was speaking directly to consequences that affected them, impressions personal to them.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#187

Post by macobo »

kuschku wrote: post #164
edblarney wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+ "It's in control of the state, " - actually, it's in control of the Army directly. + The US sprayed 'agent orange' on trees near their firebases, and the vast majority of the 'victims' were American soldiers, not Vietnamese. Obviously, they didn't know what it would do. + The 'embargo' is 100% the fault of Fidel. He put nuclear weapons 40 miles away from florida, from those who backed by the credible threat of usin…

> He put nuclear weapons 40 miles away from florida And the US isn’t putting nukes into NATO states? Italy and Turkey already have had some before Cuba got some, so what’s next? Estonia?

Original comment was:

> And the US isn’t putting nukes into Estonia?

Honest question: Where is this coming from? I'd hate to call this war-mongering and spreading misinformation, but this is a great way to polarize a conversation in one fell scoop.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#188

Post by enraged_camel »

gragas wrote: post #144
chinhodado wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only a US embargo. That leaves more than 80% of the rest of the world GDP to interact with. That's a naive view. Do you really think the rest of the world can just straight up ignore the US's embargo and play nice with Cuba, while still staying on good terms with the US?

I suppose I agree. The US' embargo was probably quite tough on Cuba. But I don't think the state of the economy in Cuba can be entirely pinned on the embargo.

Of course it can. Cuba is an island nation and relies on trade to acquire the vast majority of the goods those of us in the West take for granted. Block that trade and you basically stifle all economic growth.

From wikipedia:

>>Cuba produces sugarcane, tobacco, citrus, coffee, rice, potatoes, beans and livestock.[2] As of 2015 Cuba imported about 70-80% of its food.[51] and 80-84% of the food it rations to the public.[52] Raúl Castro ridiculed the bureaucracy that shackled the agriculture sector.[52] Before 1959, Cuba boasted as many cattle as people. Today meat is so scarce that it is a crime to kill a cow without government permission.[53] Cuban people suffered from starvation during the Special Period.[29]

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#189

Post by chinhodado »

pmarreck wrote: post #135
dajohnson89 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life expectancy for Cuba is slightly higher than that of the US.

Because there's no way that a Communist dictatorship would ever lie about that.

People complaining about low metrics in Cuba (quality of life, income, etc.). When being offered other metrics as counterpoints (like life expectancy) they conveniently dismiss it as being made up by the state. Really Cuba can't win.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#190

Post by NhanH »

edblarney wrote: post #63
djsumdog wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda. The Cuban people have been placed in their situation, not primarily by the Soviets or Castro, but by the American Hegemony and its unending empire across the globe. Many central and south American heads of state have tried to stand up to that empire, and many have died in plane crashes. Hugh Chavez, demonized in American media, put pieces of t…

"The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda." + Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. + Fidel does not allow democracy + He does not allow any real internet access + Fidel puts political dissidents in jail + Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy + Cuban's live in relative poverty + Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 ot…

Half of those you listed are just normal characteristics of communist state, to argue on those would be to argue on whether communism is "evil" in comparison to capitalism or not. This is very much not self-evident as you seem to assume from your post (I'm not interested in said discussion, just pointing out how biased looking your comment reads to me).

Just to put a concrete point, Per capita GDP of Cuba is 4 times the largest democracy country (India).

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