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Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

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Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, no, contracts do not generally become void just because one party committed a crime. Not that it really matters because, second: >when the bank willfully and egregiously commits criminal acts Wells Fargo has not been found guilty of committing criminals acts at all, much less willfully and egregiously. There are some ongoing criminal investigations, and they were hit by some civil penalties. But there have bee…

From above: Consumer Financial Services Agreements: As of May 5th, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has proposed a rule that would prohibit mandatory arbitration clauses in financial services agreements that limit access to class action lawsuits. Once formalized, this rule would apply to all contracts, including those already signed. Although such a rule would not necessarily prohibit mandatory arbitration fo…

Your link is broken for me, FYI. In any case:

> Judges in California and federal courts have ruled arbitration clauses signed by customers when they opened legitimate accounts prevent them from suing even over allegedly fraudulent accounts created without their knowledge.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wells-fargo-arbitratio...

Laws have been proposed to change this. Of course, given the election results, I highly doubt the bills, or the proposed CFPB rule you mention are going anywhere.

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not okay to do what they, Wells Fargo, have done(deceive) period. Full accounting of moral behavior includes an absolute prohibition on selling with an intend to deceive via an asymmetry of information, since risk can be epistemic/subjective related to ignorance of outcomes that the counterparty already knows about, then they sold you a product/service/contract with an intend to offload risk on you, which is str…

I am not making a value judgement on what they did - nor am I excusing it. This is a legal argument about venue - where and how the case should be heard. Getting angry at Well's Fargo might feel good, but in the end its pointless. Understanding the law itself does have practical use going forward. Perhaps the scope of signing away your right to a class action will be better understood.

> Perhaps the scope of signing away your right to a class action will be better understood. reply

This is not really a choice if you want to use a mobile phone or any tele-communications service. Same goes for employment contracts.

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#23
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you be bound by things you never agreed to? Wells Fargo didn't open accounts for random people; they opened accounts for their customers. Who agreed to resolve future disputes via binding arbitration. And one of those future disputes is over the fake accounts Wells Fargo opened later. Whatever you think of arbitration agreements, it would make no sense to have one which terminated the moment you have a disp…

This is more than just a dispute. This is criminal activity and fraud. Consumer Financial Services Agreements: As of May 5th, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has proposed a rule that would prohibit mandatory arbitration clauses in financial services agreements that limit access to class action lawsuits. Once formalized, this rule would apply to all contracts, including those already signed. Although such a r…

> Judges in California and federal courts have ruled arbitration clauses signed by customers when they opened legitimate accounts prevent them from suing even over allegedly fraudulent accounts created without their knowledge.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wells-fargo-arbitratio...

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From above: Consumer Financial Services Agreements: As of May 5th, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has proposed a rule that would prohibit mandatory arbitration clauses in financial services agreements that limit access to class action lawsuits. Once formalized, this rule would apply to all contracts, including those already signed. Although such a rule would not necessarily prohibit mandatory arbitration fo…

Your link is broken for me, FYI. In any case: > Judges in California and federal courts have ruled arbitration clauses signed by customers when they opened legitimate accounts prevent them from suing even over allegedly fraudulent accounts created without their knowledge. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wells-fargo-arbitratio... Laws have been proposed to change this. Of course, given the election results, I hi…

Fixed the link above! Can I pester you with one more question? Is there anything in the law about good faith in contracts? Say, I sign a contract with a private school for my son's education. (Note, this is a ridiculous scenario) that includes binding arbitration. If I find that a teacher has been sexually abusing him and the administration tried to cover it up, would I be restricted from a lawsuit and only allowed binding arbitration?

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your link is broken for me, FYI. In any case: > Judges in California and federal courts have ruled arbitration clauses signed by customers when they opened legitimate accounts prevent them from suing even over allegedly fraudulent accounts created without their knowledge. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wells-fargo-arbitratio... Laws have been proposed to change this. Of course, given the election results, I hi…

Fixed the link above! Can I pester you with one more question? Is there anything in the law about good faith in contracts? Say, I sign a contract with a private school for my son's education. (Note, this is a ridiculous scenario) that includes binding arbitration. If I find that a teacher has been sexually abusing him and the administration tried to cover it up, would I be restricted from a lawsuit and only allowed b…

Talk to a lawyer in your local jurisdiction. :) But offhand:

> Is there anything in the law about good faith in contracts?

Not in the sense you mean, no. Generally speaking, if they sign it in bad faith (that is, with no intent to comply), and they do not comply, that would be fraud (ie, a crime). If they sign it in good faith (that is, with an intent to comply) but later do not comply, that's breach of contract (ie, a tort) but not fraud. In both cases the contract is broken, but only because they broke it. The intent to break it isn't really relevant to that.

Generally speaking the solution for your question is "make sure the contract contains a clause that automatically terminate the contract on initiation of a criminal investigation for child abuse by the authorities" if you're worried about that.

Edit: It's not directly relevant to your question, but I feel like I should link this article which is hilarious and disturbing, and goes into some details on the fraud/breach of contract distinction. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-23/countrywi...

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#26
post #3

Despite the histrionics of this article, its actually an interesting question from a legal perspective. In the case of an account the customer never agreed to open - are they bound by the agreement which opened their primary account, or is there no legal agreement in place? Assuming the original arbitration clause covered the entire business relationship - not just matters specific to the account opened at signing th…

TIL histrionic (it looked like a misspelling) histrionic ˌhɪstrɪˈɒnɪk noun plural noun: histrionics 1. melodramatic behaviour designed to attract attention. "by now, Anna was accustomed to her mother's histrionics" synonyms: dramatics, drama, theatrics, theatricality, tantrums archaic dramatic performances; the theatre. "he loved the theatre and everything which savoured of histrionics" 2. archaic an actor.

That's boingboing for you in a lot of ways. Interesting stuff sometimes, but also ... they get a bit excited.

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixed the link above! Can I pester you with one more question? Is there anything in the law about good faith in contracts? Say, I sign a contract with a private school for my son's education. (Note, this is a ridiculous scenario) that includes binding arbitration. If I find that a teacher has been sexually abusing him and the administration tried to cover it up, would I be restricted from a lawsuit and only allowed b…

Talk to a lawyer in your local jurisdiction. :) But offhand: > Is there anything in the law about good faith in contracts? Not in the sense you mean, no. Generally speaking, if they sign it in bad faith (that is, with no intent to comply), and they do not comply, that would be fraud (ie, a crime). If they sign it in good faith (that is, with an intent to comply) but later do not comply, that's breach of contract (ie,…

Aahh, ok. So say I sign a contract with a co-founder to develop an app. This co-founder is secretly part of my competition and he steals my source code for his company. That would be fraud?

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more than just a dispute. This is criminal activity and fraud. Consumer Financial Services Agreements: As of May 5th, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has proposed a rule that would prohibit mandatory arbitration clauses in financial services agreements that limit access to class action lawsuits. Once formalized, this rule would apply to all contracts, including those already signed. Although such a r…

> Judges in California and federal courts have ruled arbitration clauses signed by customers when they opened legitimate accounts prevent them from suing even over allegedly fraudulent accounts created without their knowledge. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wells-fargo-arbitratio...

Interesting. So, signing a contract with no intent to comply, fraudulently signing a contract would disallow arbitration, but committing fraud after the fact is ok?

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#29
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixed the link above! Can I pester you with one more question? Is there anything in the law about good faith in contracts? Say, I sign a contract with a private school for my son's education. (Note, this is a ridiculous scenario) that includes binding arbitration. If I find that a teacher has been sexually abusing him and the administration tried to cover it up, would I be restricted from a lawsuit and only allowed b…

Talk to a lawyer in your local jurisdiction. :) But offhand: > Is there anything in the law about good faith in contracts? Not in the sense you mean, no. Generally speaking, if they sign it in bad faith (that is, with no intent to comply), and they do not comply, that would be fraud (ie, a crime). If they sign it in good faith (that is, with an intent to comply) but later do not comply, that's breach of contract (ie,…

Re the link. It seems a step here would be to implement an automatic question in the transaction. "Are the new mortgages Acceptable." Seems less burdensome to clarify the law, but that may be a naive view on my behalf.

Re: Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged

#30

Outrageous! This is like a software company which pushes unwanted OS upgrades on its customers and then hides behind customers agreeing to a nag-screen exploding "offer" when the upgrade bricks some of the previously fine computers. Thankfully we in the software business don't have to worry about such things, because we are above such tactics. All you little people, its really your fault for being such small fry...

I recognise that behaviour. Indeed I was exposed to it.
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