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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#71

Post by meric »

gragas wrote: post #60
matt4077 wrote: post #25

He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times... And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba would have faired under different leadership. Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Just one example: life expectancy is 15 years higher than Haiti, and actually even…

>with a superpower fixated on killing you (and ruining you economy) next door Look at how awful the quality of life in Cuba is today. Look at its people's lack of basic freedoms. Look at its awful economy. The US tried to save Cuba from itself.

Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right?

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#72

Post by justicezyx »

edblarney wrote: post #59
djsumdog wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba has been under embargos for decades. You can't blame the current situation on Castro alone. That's like saying the reason your pizza shop was burned to the ground was because you paid protection money to the wrong mafia, and it was the other one that really controlled your neighbourhood.

"Cuba has been under embargos for decades. " Cuba has been embargoed only by the USA. Cuba can buy absolutely anything it needs - even American products - simply by going through any one of a myriad of interlocutors: Mexico, Canada, Jamaica, Venezuela. There is absolutely no forgiving Fidel's cruel dictatorship.

US embargo means a lot, not just unable to buy stuff easily. Let's not pretend that US was not the world cop. The embargo definitely has negative impact on Cuba economy.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#73

Post by wallace_f »

jknoepfler wrote: post #55
gragas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was also an evil dictator who silenced any and all opposition. And you can't argue that his political philosophy works either---just look at Cuba today.

That he was a dictator is uncontroversial. The word 'evil' in this context is probably meaningless. Cuba's trajectory through world history under Castro is in turns tragic, heroic, idealistic, and cynical. The comment you are replying to is embracing that complexity. Paving over it with simplistic thinking "Castro was evil and wrong" does a great deal of violence to the truth. I am no fan of the shape Fidel Castro's…

These are important lessons, and very well expressed--better than I could say it. I just want to add that I wish more of us felt this way. Everyone community online I find it seems the emotional knee-jerk reaction is very prevalent in the way we think about politics, and I don't see the maturity expressed in this comment very often.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#74

Post by redial »

elcapitan wrote: post #66
djsumdog wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you buy a beer for your friends at a bar and maybe next week they buy a round, that's communism. Communism is a central part of western society. China, the USSA and Cuba were never communism. They varied between heavy socialism (also a pinical of all high income countries: roads, trains, parks, police, fire, airports) and fascism. A lot of people who just go on about communists, today, in 2016, seemed to have no…

> When you buy a beer for your friends at a bar and maybe next week they buy a round, that's communism. Communism is a central part of western society. Communism is when you and your friends go to a bar and there is no beer, because there was not enough grain produced on command of the central planning committee 4 years ago. Now you and your friends are upset and complain about it, so you get arrested and locked up w…

Sure, communism might be a bad idea, but why is it so unforgivable? specially when is not your country?

And it's not like nobody got locked up in the 50s without a hint of a trial just for the suspicion of being 'communist' and betraying the capitalistic ideals.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#75

Post by sysk »

gragas wrote: post #60
matt4077 wrote: post #25

He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times... And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba would have faired under different leadership. Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Just one example: life expectancy is 15 years higher than Haiti, and actually even…

>with a superpower fixated on killing you (and ruining you economy) next door Look at how awful the quality of life in Cuba is today. Look at its people's lack of basic freedoms. Look at its awful economy. The US tried to save Cuba from itself.

I'm with you up until "the US tried to save Cuba from itself". Castro was an awful dictator but the US embargo not only didn't save Cuba from itself, it made things worse for ordinary Cuban citizens. I wouldn't be proud of it.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#76

Post by phs318u »

mememachine wrote: post #47
plandis wrote: post #30

I might not agree with his methods but he did seem like a leader that legitimately cared about Cubas citizens.

intentions < results in my book

Can you name a single leader of any stripe anywhere, in the last 50 years, whose results exceeded their intentions? Isn't it the very definition of a politician that they over-promise and under-deliver?

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#77

Post by coldtea »

edblarney wrote: post #54
chirau wrote: post #24

As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century. To pretend here, for me, as if he was cruel to our continent would be both ungrateful and untrue. The man offered free training and medical school for most of our African doctors, he harbored, trained and armed many a guerilla group in our pursuit of independence from colonization. Up until today, Cuba still sends signi…

This is a disturbing position. I don't doubt that his doctors may have helped you. However, the man has committed grievous crimes, keeps 'his people' in abject poverty, on an 'island prison'. More than 85% of the economy is in the control of the military - his private Army. "Up until today, Cuba still sends significant numbers of doctors to remote African areas and provide expensive medical procedures for free." This…

>However, the man has committed grievous crimes

Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides.

>keeps 'his people' in abject poverty

A 40+ years embargo has something to do with that too...

>More than 85% of the economy is in the control of the military - his private Army.

It's in control of the state, which is how things are supposed to work in communist countries. Not necessarily worse than having it in the hands of corporations...

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#78

Post by [deleted] »

chirau wrote: post #24

As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century. To pretend here, for me, as if he was cruel to our continent would be both ungrateful and untrue. The man offered free training and medical school for most of our African doctors, he harbored, trained and armed many a guerilla group in our pursuit of independence from colonization. Up until today, Cuba still sends signi…

[deleted]

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#79

Post by thesimpsons1022 »

CalChris wrote: post #50
gragas wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's absolutely insane to side with Castro. Even if you agree with his political philosophy, there is overwhelming objective evidence of how awful it is: - Cuban economy - Cuban quality of life - basic Cuban freedoms (like supporting parties other than the one in power)

Per capita GDP for Cuba is $6,789 Mexico $9,909 Guatamala $3,666 Honduras $2,495 I'd say Cuba is in the mix GDP-wise. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

honest question: is that a good measure? that puts them far ahead of india and similar to china.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#80

Post by firekvz »

edblarney wrote: post #54
chirau wrote: post #24

As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century. To pretend here, for me, as if he was cruel to our continent would be both ungrateful and untrue. The man offered free training and medical school for most of our African doctors, he harbored, trained and armed many a guerilla group in our pursuit of independence from colonization. Up until today, Cuba still sends signi…

This is a disturbing position. I don't doubt that his doctors may have helped you. However, the man has committed grievous crimes, keeps 'his people' in abject poverty, on an 'island prison'. More than 85% of the economy is in the control of the military - his private Army. "Up until today, Cuba still sends significant numbers of doctors to remote African areas and provide expensive medical procedures for free." This…

So what's your position on US people responsible for Pinochet?(just to name 1 of so many examples), if we are going to start mentioning crimes, I think Fidel Castro and his brother are pretty down on the list of people that we should be worrying about.
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