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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#231

Post by sqldba »

edblarney wrote: post #216
Animats wrote: post #79

We're there already. There are vast numbers of people who cannot make an economic contribution large enough to cover their costs. Education won't help. Teach a human how to do something, and you have one human who can do it. Teach a computer how to do something, and you can have as many computers as needed doing it. The US has already hit "peak school" in terms of economic benefit. About half of college graduates tak…

"Education won't help. Teach a human how to do something, and you have one human who can do it. Teach a computer how to do something, and you can have as many computers as needed doing it. " This is pragmatically not true. There are tons and tons of jobs that can't be done by computers. The 'entertainment sector' was not even a part of the economy 100 years ago. Now it's a big chunk. Think of how big sports are. That…

The whole "computers can do anything" theme in the original post and the comments is borderline retarded and describing a mythical state always one or two decades in the future.

Teaching a computer to do anything is fucking HARD. And most of the time the problems are just unsolvable.

Sure you see cool demos like one that can cook for you. That shit is awesome. So uhhh... where are they? They're demos and proofs of concept, so expensive, require maintenance and programmers (gasp!). Don't except to see real ones mass produced and taking over for a good 30-40-50 years.

We can do a lot with computers and automation but IMHO every article that starts with, "If you don't agree then you're an idiot" is immediately sitting on a faulty foundation.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#232

Post by rdtsc »

nico_h wrote: post #159
rdtsc wrote: post #82

> Most jobs aren’t created by private, corporate investment, so raising taxes on corporate income won’t affect employment. But won't raising taxes on corporate income drive corporation to other jurisdiction? So employment in that company then won't just slowly trail off, but will look like a cliff, dropping to 0. So isn't that idea ignoring the fact that companies don't have to stick into one place and so we arbitrar…

A possible solution to the "raising taxes on corporation will drive them to other jurisdictions" problem is to make the taxes the same everywhere, at least within the same country, ideally at the world's level, for a truly level playing field. Another would be to say "we prevent you from doing business here if you don't do something here" (the india / china strategy).

> is to make the taxes the same everywhere,

Yes, try remove the arbitrage opportunity. That should help. Usually one would say competition is good, so different states with different tax laws is good. However, in many cases it is the workers and small communities that end up suffering as result.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#233

Post by sqldba »

a3n wrote: post #40
Practicality wrote: post #4

At this point I've already come to accept that fulltime labor for everyone is simply not going to happen. We just don't need it. The big question is will the majority be able to maintain enough power to obtain income for those who aren't working, or will we see some kind of serious class warfare/starving populations? This is a huge question in human history and it remains to be seen how we as a species are going to a…

> The big question is will the majority be able to maintain enough power to obtain income for those who aren't working, or will we see some kind of serious class warfare/starving populations? In the United States it will be the class warfare/starving thing. You don't deserve anything here unless you pay for it. Many people believe that taking unemployment compensation is shameful. I think a lot of us will be fed in p…

I thought prison food isn't free. Over in America the inmates have to either pay for it or work to pay for it.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#235

Post by sqldba »

nico_h wrote: post #129
visarga wrote: post #76

Today most people work for companies they don't own. In the future, the unemployed will become self employed and work directly to support themselves. Some have land, and can cultivate food. Others can make furniture, or give medical consultations, or teach children. Even owning a small solar farm could be a source of income. All of them were formerly professionals, now jobless and moneyless. So they have to work dire…

Rule #1 : Anything that can be economically automated will be. Corollary: Anything that is automated is not economically sensible for a human to do. - Freelancing and consulting gigs have huge overhead. - Uber drivers (for now) own the car but don't make most of the money. And they will be made redundant by self driving cars. - Medical services have the most overhead and require years of expensive training. - Making…

If you believe that anyone, including business, is always seeking the lowest cost, then you've never worked in a company that blows its money on useless shit - starting with executives and ending with subcontracting at ridiculously expensive rates just so that there's no employee cost on the books.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#236

Post by sqldba »

visarga wrote: post #171
nico_h wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rule #1 : Anything that can be economically automated will be. Corollary: Anything that is automated is not economically sensible for a human to do. - Freelancing and consulting gigs have huge overhead. - Uber drivers (for now) own the car but don't make most of the money. And they will be made redundant by self driving cars. - Medical services have the most overhead and require years of expensive training. - Making…

> Anything that can be economically automated will be. Yes, but when you can't pay the wonderful automated hospital its fees, you hire the local unemployed doctor (replaced by an automatic diagnostic system) and in lieu of payment, you go and fix his roof. My point is that there are going to be lots of unemployed people and they are going to work for themselves because they need to survive, because they got no money…

No point fixing the roof if you don't own it. And nobody will be able to buy a house.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#237

Post by hudibras »

PrimalDual wrote: post #115
wildmusings wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thing to be able to live a frugal life and still be healthy enough. Why do you think that you should have the right to live off of other people's work? Welfare checks aren't fairy money, they're money that ca…

So right now it comes from other people's paycheck but does it have to? Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending? Inflation is not the problem it used to be and I actually think it's a much better measure of the economy's capacity than unemployment. Would inflation of 4% be that bad for the public and financial system anyways? In the US at least I strongly opp…

>Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending?

The two words that are most likely to cause a old-fashioned Hacker News libertarian-slash-armchair-economist freakout: "print money."

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#238

Post by rdtsc »

nhaehnle wrote: post #182
nico_h wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This are the idea I have been struggling with: 1) how do you get people to accept the existence of basic income without perceiving the beneficiaries as moochers. 2) what do people on basic do? Right now your example of people visiting the elderly is in some place paid work but can also be performed by volunteer. However volunteers should be vetted. My guess is that when everybody is on basic, you can earn "social cre…

Well, we already have a form of "social credits". It's called money. We're just not used to thinking of it that way, but that's really what money is. So replace "social credits" in your line of thinking by money, and you've basically arrived at the idea of a Job Guarantee. And somebody who works for their money is no longer a moocher, so...

I think it would be interesting if it is divorced from money and they'd be (ideally) impossibly to buy it with money.

Maybe social credit could be used to run for office. Or it can be used to weight votes -- those with more social credit can cast 5 votes in elections.

Think of a high ranking CEO and how maybe some airlines would invite them to fly for free just to get free advertising. Or might get invited to White House dinners and such. Maybe nurses, firefighters or teachers who achieved higher social credits would be treated the same way.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#239

Post by mooneater »

vacri wrote: post #230
cesarbs wrote: post #212

Another good read on the topic: http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/political-science/t... I like this bit: "the knowledge worker is under severe external constraints. Much of their work is assisted or mediated through information technology, which contributes to a de-skilling of their cognitive labor. And on top of this they are expected to fully invest themselves in their jobs in a way that manufacturing labor…

Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy . It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about manag…

Not sure why you are being downvoted, I think this point of view is valid.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#240

Post by cesarbs »

vacri wrote: post #230
cesarbs wrote: post #212

Another good read on the topic: http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/political-science/t... I like this bit: "the knowledge worker is under severe external constraints. Much of their work is assisted or mediated through information technology, which contributes to a de-skilling of their cognitive labor. And on top of this they are expected to fully invest themselves in their jobs in a way that manufacturing labor…

Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy . It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about manag…

This is the bit that hits close to home to me:

> they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work

My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall from my experience that illustrate this:

- I had a team lead who once said, "I don't want people in this team working like this is a 9-5 job"

- Something I heard from someone in a team that worked close to ours: "the candidate was solid in problem solving and coding ability, but we didn't hire them because they didn't show passion"

This sort of bullshit is pervasive in our field and IMO is what the quote above is referring to.

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